Like the banks of a river setting the perimeter or creating the container where the river can flow freely ;-)
Monica > Den 6. okt. 2015 kl. 20.07 skrev Chris Corrigan via OSList > <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>: > > My exploration of the Tao te Ching over the years has left me with the > realization that structure and flow are co-arising: they come into being > together and exist and mutually influence each other. How I live my life, > shapes my body, and my body’s shape determines how I live my life, and both > those things change together forever until I die and one or other of these > things disappears. > > The idea that one exists separate from the other is a kind of delusion. And > ignoring the reality that both structure and flow arise together means that > you end up imposing structure when you don’t think your are, or imposing flow > when you don’t think you are, from a kind of blind spot. That can be quite > dangerous to living systems. > > Chris > > > > >> On Oct 6, 2015, at 11:00 AM, paul levy via OSList >> <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> >> wrote: >> >> Is this list a tyranny of structurelessness? >> >> On 6 October 2015 at 16:56, Michael Herman via OSList >> <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> >> wrote: >> Yes and Daniel, there are the words of a story and the feeling/meaning of >> it. I considered writing a longer message in the telling of this story, but >> I wanted to transmit as much of the spirit/experience of it as I could. >> >> Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that morning. He did >> just like I said, got up in a morning news circle, it was an OTgathering as >> I noted but that doesn't matter, it was open space and morning news. He said >> his piece and sat down. The experience for me, and others I have learned >> only later, was stunning and disorienting, for sure. >> >> I thought to honor and convey this experience through some measure of >> similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you picked up on. The >> disorienting magic of Ralph's moment. >> >> There are moments in open space of surprise and disconnect, maybe >> frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or disorientation and even >> disappointment that arise in open space. This we all know and have >> experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to be solved but the nature >> of the territory. It just is. >> >> Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know. He had something to >> say and he said it. That was his only job. After that, each of us had to >> figure out for ourselves what, if anything, to do with his story, to decide >> if it was wisdom or wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the >> responsibility for finding and sharing what's true for him/her. The rest is >> up to us. >> >> Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we all have in open >> space, namely learning to trust more and more that we already are always >> included in a flow that is bigger and deeper or whatever than we can see or >> understand or articulate sometimes. Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit >> of errant and temporary mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and >> can't be solved by anyone!); it's a trail marker. Which is to say about >> exclusion and missing out, "welcome!" The good news is, and the bad news >> is, you're in! And, it's all still happening Now. >> >> As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny again in the >> subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again >> when we expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us? Is this >> not something of our central challenge, something all of us work with? The >> edge of open space is an end of comfortable, conventional understanding? Or >> something? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList >> <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> >> wrote: >> Hi Harrison, >> >> Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and Google, etc. I did do those >> things actually. However, that's a bit of an effort, especially searching >> the OSLIST archives. I guess I could eventually pick up OSLIST culture that >> way, little by little. I suppose an earnest person with loads of time could >> sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture out. The hard way. >> >> However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is nothing like a good story to >> convey culture. The kind of story with a beginning, a middle and an end. >> >> I notice that, when you are the one referring to a certain OS-mythos story, >> you usually tend to include the short list of pertinent details, the >> essential details that provide the essential context, so the reader can >> follow along, and engage. >> >> And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to follow along, and get >> what you are referring to, and more fully understand the story, and feel >> oddly included in the story. >> >> >> Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to (for me) arouse >> feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a general lack of membership in >> whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is being referred to. Sort of an "out >> group" feeling. You know? Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be >> thinking by posting random fragments of a "you had to be there" kind of >> story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also feeling these >> feelings. Or if it is "just me." >> >> And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part because you include the >> pertinent details, and in so doing, make me (for one) feel included. >> >> So thanks for including the context in your stories. It makes them fun, and >> easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly has it's quirks, and for me, your >> stories make this culture easier to figure out, and navigate, and enjoy. >> >> >> Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness: >> >> Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are actually true? Do these >> ideas have legs? >> This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of >> "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures, >> only formal ones. >> For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given group and to >> participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit, not implicit. >> It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured groups, which >> forms the basis for elites. >> >> Daniel >> >> On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote: >>> Dan, Google can often help. https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman >>> <https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman> >>> >>> >>> ho >>> >>> >>> >>> From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org <>] On Behalf >>> Of Daniel Mezick via OSList >>> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM >>> To: Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> Subject: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness >>> >>> >>> >>> Howdy Harrison, >>> >>> Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph Copleman story- I'm very >>> thankful for that info. >>> >>> I notice that, lots of times here, there are references made to notable OST >>> episodes, and situations from times past... >>> >>> ...the "OST-mythos" as it were. >>> >>> These mythical stories often have me wondering what I missed, and what I >>> might now be missing. (Being clueless as I am.) >>> >>> I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not posted with intent to >>> exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or unkind. More like: some good old >>> basic camaraderie is taking place between some old friends. >>> >>> Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST tend to evoke feelings >>> of exclusion in readers who were not there at the time? >>> >>> Not sure. >>> >>> <CONFESSION> >>> >>> As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself experiencing curiously odd >>> feelings of exclusion, when a told-fragment of an old OST-mythos story >>> lacks explicit context. So I can follow the story, you know? The terms >>> "outsider" or "clueless" or "not in the story" describe these feelings >>> fairly well. "Not invited?" >>> >>> I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of other members of OSLIST ever >>> feel this way...or if it is "just me." >>> >>> </CONFESSION> >>> >>> Daniel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote: >>> >>> “Everything is moving.† .... Michael -- I remember that moment very >>> well. And Dan, I’m not sure the context, etc, would help very much. But >>> just for the record the odd phrase popped out at one of the International >>> Symposia on Organization Transformation which happened to be taking place >>> at a small college south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph said what he >>> did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But then again a lot of marvelous >>> stuff seems to burst out with no obvious logic train. Indeed it may be that >>> the lack of logic train enables the thought? >>> >>>  >>> >>> Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about my head for some time, >>> quite unattached, and it also happened that I was working my way slowly >>> through one of the masterpieces of 20th century western philosophy when a >>> fuzzy connection began to form. The work was that of Alfred North >>> Whitehead, and the title: “Process and Reality.†I’ve been through the >>> book probably 4-5 times, and I am frank to confess that I don’t think I >>> really understand it. But then again I’ve heard a number of people with >>> much greater credentials, tenure, etc – say the same thing. But I did get >>> that it had something to do with, “Everything is moving.†And the more I >>> thought and read, the more I felt that the good philosopher had made a >>> small mistake on his title. It shouldn’t be “Process and Reality,†but >>> rather “Process is Reality.†>>> >>>  >>> >>> Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,†or perhaps I should say the >>> fallacy of Structure? Yes I know – we’ve all been taught that structure >>> is the precursor, the “determinator†of everything. My face looks as it >>> does because of my bone structure. My life proceeds the way it does because >>> of my social structure. My business works as it does because of the >>> organizational structure. And of course, meetings happen the way they do >>> because of meeting structure, which apparently is the prime domain of >>> “facilitators.†And even if we hadn’t been “taught†all this, the >>> primacy of structure would appear to be blatantly obvious – as plain as >>> the nose on your face. >>> >>>  >>> >>> Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that sometimes the blatantly >>> obvious is not necessarily so. For example just looking at things it is >>> pretty clear that the world is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And any >>> fool can see that we are the center of it all – Sun, moon, and stars whiz >>> around us. But when we think about it, as we have been doing for the last >>> 500-600 years, the obvious isn’t so obvious. >>> >>>  >>> >>> It is reasonable to ask what would start to make us think differently – >>> to the point that we begin to question the obvious, and even come to see >>> things in a different way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all begins >>> with the perception of anomaly. Things just don’t make sense. Our eyes >>> tell us one thing... but???? And then we start making up stories to explain >>> the apparently unexplainable. We imagine different ways of looking at >>> things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some of those stories get >>> pretty strange, but if they actually work – that is to say, help us to >>> see in new and useful ways – that’s great! >>> >>>  >>> >>> There is, of course, a proper term for the activity I have been describing. >>> It is called Theory Building. And for whatever it is worth, “theory†>>> comes from the Greek “theorein†– to see. In a word, theories are ways >>> of looking at things – likely stories you might say. >>> >>>  >>> >>> Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd story I was starting to >>> tell, to the effect that Structure is only a figment of our imagination, a >>> flash frame of a moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful under some >>> circumstances... but always partial and in a sense illusory. What’s >>> “really†happening is all flow. Everything is moving – That’s >>> Ralph’s story, and I guess it is mine too. >>> >>>  >>> >>> So how did I get to such a weird condition? It was all about anomaly – >>> more particularly, the anomaly of Open Space. Everything that I had ever >>> learned told me that it could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) – and >>> not just once, but every time, hundreds of thousands of times. Something >>> was definitely weird. It seemed to me that I had to re-consider all those >>> things I thought I had learned, beginning with the basics... such things as >>> Structure. >>> >>>  >>> >>> Common sense would say that Open Space works because we somehow created a >>> structure that enabled it to work. That’s the way things get done, or so >>> I had been taught. But that’s not the way things happened in Open Space. >>> Structure emerged along the way and only momentarily. Worse yet it >>> (structure) seemed to have little to do with the obvious power, >>> connections, creativity.... all of which created structures, and passed >>> them by. And actually it always seemed to me that the “structures†I >>> “saw†existed only because I wanted to see them – or perhaps that I >>> “should†see them. But they were only momentary wisps, figments – >>> never to be mistaken for what was really going on. Or so I’ve been >>> thinking. >>> >>>  >>> >>> Harrison >>> >>>  >>> >>>  >>> >>>  >>> >>>  >>> >>>  >>> >>>  >>> >>> From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org <>] On Behalf >>> Of Michael Herman via OSList >>> Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM >>> To: JL Walker; World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> Subject: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness >>> >>>  >>> >>> you remind me, harrison, of one morning news session years ago, somewhere, >>> probably OT... where ralph copleman walked to the center of the circle and >>> announced, all serious and mischievous at the same time, "it's all moving!" >>>  >>> >>>  >>> >>> then put the stick down and went back to his seat. >>> >>> >>> >>>  >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Herman >>> Michael Herman Associates >>> http://MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/> >>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/> >>>  >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via OSList >>> <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <>> wrote: >>> >>> I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the eventual tyranny of >>> structurelessness is to open space, again and again, until true democracy >>> can emerge. >>> >>>  >>> >>> Juan Luis >>> >>>  >>> >>> De: OSList [mailto: <>oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org <>] En nombre >>> de Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList >>> Enviado el: sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015 12:19 >>> Para: Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> Asunto: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness >>> >>>  >>> >>> Hi Daniel, >>> >>> Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very similar in some ways to what >>> Ken Wilber wrote later, >>> >>> about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each meme has its own shadow, >>> as well as its own gift...) >>> >>> So, I love "green". I love circles, I love non-hierarchy, etc. >>> And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme" is how ideologically >>> anti-structure it can become... >>> >>> to the point where some people may not even agree that OST does, in fact, >>> offer a very simple and effective structure. >>> >>> By way contrast, think of a situation where group of people (who don't know >>> about OST, and/or, who are having a power struggle around "which process to >>> use", and/or.... ) might easily spending a whole weekend arguing about >>> "how to self-organize ourselves"... with a great deal more pain and >>> frustration and a great deal less value. >>> >>> whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST, and, a clear invitation has >>> been extended, and, there is enough trust/suspension of disbelief so that >>> participants are willing to enter into that format, >>> >>> then, we end up with a very simple and elegant structure that allows people >>> to self-organize beautifully.... >>> >>> at least that's how i see it! :-) >>> >>> with all best wishes, >>> >>> Rosa >>> >>>  >>> >>> >>> >>> Rosa Zubizarreta >>> >>> Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent Leadership >>> Author of From Conflict to Creative Collaboration >>> <http://www.conflict2creativity.com/> >>> For more resources and learning opportunities, visit >>> www.DiaPraxis.com <http://www.diapraxis.com/> >>>  >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList < >>> <>oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <>> wrote: >>> >>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS >>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen >>> >>> I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope you do, too. >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay: >>> "...the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of >>> informal structures, only formal ones." >>> >>> >>> Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick summary of the main >>> points: from the essay... >>> >>> ï‚· During the years in which the women's liberation movement has been >>> taking shape, a great emphasis has been placed on what are called >>> leaderless, structureless groups as the main -- if not sole -- >>> organizational form of the movement. >>> >>> ï‚· The idea of "structurelessness," however, has moved from a healthy >>> counter to those tendencies, to becoming a goddess in its own right. >>> >>> ï‚· Contrary to what we would like to believe, there is no such thing as a >>> structureless group. >>> >>> ï‚· This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and >>> as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social >>> science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic >>> as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a smokescreen for the strong >>> or the lucky to establish unquestioned hegemony over others. >>> >>> ï‚· This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of >>> "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures, >>> only formal ones. >>> >>> ï‚· For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given group >>> and to participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit, not >>> implicit. >>> >>> ï‚· It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured groups, >>> which forms the basis for elites. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just in case you have not yet encountered the full text of this essay, here >>> it is: >>> >>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS >>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen >>> http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm >>> <http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Daniel >>> http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about >>> <http://www.openspaceagility.com/about> >>> http://www.DanielMezick.com <http://www.danielmezick.com/> >>> 203 915 7248 <tel:203%20915%207248> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to <>OSList@lists.openspacetech.org <> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to <>oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org <> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> >>> Past archives can be viewed here: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> >>>  >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org <> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to <>oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org <> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> >>> Past archives can be viewed here: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> >>>  >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org <> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org <> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> >>> Past archives can be viewed here: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Daniel Mezick, President >>> >>> New Technology Solutions Inc. >>> >>> (203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell) >>> >>> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog >>> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter >>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>. >>> >>> Examine my new book: The Culture Game >>> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the Agile >>> Manager. >>> >>> Explore Agile Team Training >>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching. >>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/> >>> Explore the Agile Boston >>> <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/>Community. >>> >> >> -- >> Daniel Mezick, President >> >> New Technology Solutions Inc. >> >> (203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell) >> >> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. >> Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>. >> >> Examine my new book: The Culture Game >> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the Agile >> Manager. >> >> Explore Agile Team Training >> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching. >> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/> >> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> -- >> >> Michael Herman >> Michael Herman Associates >> http://MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/> >> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> <mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> <mailto:oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> >> Past archives can be viewed here: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> <mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> <mailto:oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> >> Past archives can be viewed here: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > Past archives can be viewed here: > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
_______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
