Hi all
On where the replies go.
I have noticed that my email automatively defaults to the postee's
e-address. I have to cut and paste the open space address into the 'To'
for it to be posted to this list. This situation may be the same for
others. I tested my theory on this email with the 'reply' and 'reply
all' functions with the same result that the reply would have gone
direct to Daniel if I had proceded.
I don't know whether this issue is related to my email setup or OsList's.
Kind regards
Anne
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:53:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
From: [email protected]
mmp,
Thanks for posting this under [The Tyranny of Structurelessness.]
How interesting that subscribers feel more comfortable contacting you
personally by email, rather than responding here.
Apparently you are more approachable for interactions and/or easier to
interact with than OSLIST. I'm sure there is more than one specific
reason "why" this might be true.
Daniel
On 10/7/15 5:16 PM, Michael M Pannwitz via OSList wrote:
One of the structures, customs, ways of doing stuff, call it what
you prefer I have repeatedly noticed: A number of Members of the
LIST I never see on the LIST send responses to stuff I put on the
LIST. When I think a message would be great for the whole LIST to
see, I suggest it to the sender. Them Lurkers are definitely a "call
it what you prefer" element of our organisation.
Cheers from Berlin
mmp
On 07.10.2015 22:48, Michael Herman via OSList wrote:
wasn't actually intended as personal feedback, daniel. was
meant to be
a comment on the territory we all share, even when we might, any
of us,
feel in the moment like an outsider, that disorientation is
actually a
part of being included in the experience of open space.
as for the essay, i guess i'm still a little unclear about the
connection. open space doesn't strike me as any sort of
striving for
structurelessness. and i've seen both formal and informal
structure
arise in open space. harrison's term in his "millennial
organization"
book and what i've seen happen is "appropriate levels of
structure and
control."
the oslist doesn't seem structureless, either. there are all
kinds of
limiting and supporting structures that make it possible. and then
there are the customs we've developed, like it's common and
desired for
people to reply to the whole list with answers to questions, and
even
personal stories and sidebars, rather than always taking that
stuff to
private emails. much of the informal stuff was captured in chris
corrigan's oslist faq's i mentioned earlier. and these things
change.
the address changed. the admin changed. the archives moved but
survived, thanks to harold. now we allow attachments. the
archives
were private and later became publicly searchable. new people
show up
all the time, and join in. the user's non-guide (ebook)
captured one
great moment in joining when julie smith showed up very new to
all of
this, asked some great questions, and sparked all kinds of
conversation
on many important dimensions of the practice.
maybe your definition of structure will also define
structureless. i
guess i don't know what ever could be structureless, in line
wiht chris'
story... except that everything's moving, it's all flow, as
harrison
says. but maybe those two stories aren't at odds, either...
some bits
are just more dense or more slowly flowing than others, but it's
all
flow in the end. is flow structureless?
is the tyranny of structurelessness just to say that everything's
moving, and moving on, even the parts we really like, and that
can make
for some difficult experiences... that would also be nobody's
fault, but
just part of the shared condition? uncomfortable in spots, to
be sure,
but nobody's and no system's "fault" or "responsibility?"
as mentioned earlier, OS and the circle don't make people
equal. some
will always be better, faster, stronger, more attractive, more
connected
than others. is thta a problem to be solved? i'm having some
trouble
connecting "elites," "movement," "authorization" and some other
terms in
the essay to my experience in open space and on the list. the
essay
seems to want to fix a problem, but one that's not familiar to
me, at
least not as a sort of thing to be solved.
why is this essay important for you? how does it inform your
understanding and practice of open space? or your participation
on the
oslist? are we a movement? are you an elite? is open space at
risk of
being taken over? help me make the connection(s)?
i notice that you said in your first message that you find this
"extremely interesting" but you've yet to say why.
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Daniel Mezick
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Yo Michael,
The whole "story-context-is-missing" thing is really just a
sidebar
to the important (and much wider) issues around authority.
These authority-issues are raised by the subject essay,
"The Tyranny
of Structurelessness." What a great essay!
Story-context is a really, really important topic though,
especially
if "missing-context" does have at least the potential to evoke
feelings of exclusion, in at least some members of the list.
Regarding some of the things you are saying:
You say, "Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant
and
temporary mental structure."
I say, my current belief is that my feelings are not illusion
whatsoever, nor are they error. Rather they are real and
valid,
human emotions. They are emotions which, when experienced
fully, are
in fact an essential aspect of living well.
You say, "...I notice the word tyranny again in the
subject. Is it
not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again
when we
expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us?"
I say, my current belief is that inquiry is not simply
important, it
is in fact essential. Inquiry is good.
In any event, and as always, I do appreciate your feedback.
I am now keen to get back to the main topic !
I wonder how we might, in the here and now, go about
defining the
term "structure," for purposes of further discussing issues
raised
by this essay with much more clarity.
That's a question I'm keen to explore with you, and the other
members of this list, inside this thread.
Regards,
Daniel
http://www.Prime-OS.com
On 10/6/15 11:56 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
Yes and Daniel, there are the words of a story and the
feeling/meaning of it. I considered writing a longer
message in
the telling of this story, but I wanted to transmit as
much of the
spirit/experience of it as I could.
Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that
morning. He did just like I said, got up in a morning
news circle,
it was an OTgathering as I noted but that doesn't
matter, it was
open space and morning news. He said his piece and sat
down. The
experience for me, and others I have learned only
later, was
stunning and disorienting, for sure.
I thought to honor and convey this experience through
some measure
of similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what
you picked
up on. The disorienting magic of Ralph's moment.
There are moments in open space of surprise and
disconnect, maybe
frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or
disorientation and
even disappointment that arise in open space. This we
all know and
have experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing
to be solved
but the nature of the territory. It just is.
Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I
know. He had
something to say and he said it. That was his only job.
After
that, each of us had to figure out for ourselves what, if
anything, to do with his story, to decide if it was
wisdom or
wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the
responsibility
for finding and sharing what's true for him/her. The
rest is up
to us.
Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we
all have
in open space, namely learning to trust more and more
that we
already are always included in a flow that is bigger
and deeper or
whatever than we can see or understand or articulate
sometimes.
Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant and
temporary
mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and
can't be solved
by anyone!); it's a trail marker. Which is to say
about exclusion
and missing out, "welcome!" The good news is, and the
bad news
is, you're in! And, it's all still happening Now.
As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word
tyranny again in
the subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all
attempt over
and over again when we expect and insist that the world
explain
itself to/for us? Is this not something of our central
challenge,
something all of us work with? The edge of open space
is an end
of comfortable, conventional understanding? Or something?
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList
<<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Harrison,
Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and
Google, etc. I
did do those things actually. However, that's a bit
of an
effort, especially searching the OSLIST archives. I
guess I
could eventually pick up OSLIST culture that way,
little by
little. I suppose an earnest person with loads of
time could
sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture
out. The
hard way.
However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is
nothing like a
good story to convey culture. The kind of story with a
beginning, a middle and an end.
I notice that, when you are the one referring to a
certain
OS-mythos story, you usually tend to include the
short list of
pertinent details, the essential details that
provide the
essential context, so the reader can follow along,
and engage.
And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to
follow
along, and get what you are referring to, and more
fully
understand the story, and feel oddly included in
the story.
Earlier, I express how not having the context tends
to (for
me) arouse feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness,
and a general
lack of membership in whatever
"historic-OS-mythos-episode" is
being referred to. Sort of an "out group" feeling.
You know?
Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be
thinking by
posting random fragments of a "you had to be there"
kind of
story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are
also feeling
these feelings. Or if it is "just me."
And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in
part because
you include the pertinent details, and in so doing,
make me
(for one) feel included.
So thanks for including the context in your
stories. It makes
them fun, and easy to follow. OSLIST culture
certainly has
it's quirks, and for me, your stories make this
culture easier
to figure out, and navigate, and enjoy.
Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:
Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are
actually
true? Do these ideas have legs?
* /This hegemony can be so easily established
because the
idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent
the formation
of informal structures, only formal ones./
* /For everyone to have the opportunity to be
involved in a
given group and to participate in its
activities, the
structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
* /It is this informal structure, particularly in
Unstructured groups, which forms the basis for
elites./
Daniel
On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
Dan, Google can often help.
<https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman>
<https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman>https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman
ho
*From:*OSList
[mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
*Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
*To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space
Technology email list
*Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
Structurelessness
Howdy Harrison,
Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph
Copleman
story- I'm very thankful for that info.
I notice that, lots of times here, there are
references made
to notable OST episodes, and situations from
times past...
...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
These mythical stories often have me wondering
what I missed,
and what I might now be missing. (Being
clueless as I am.)
I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not
posted with
intent to exclude anyone, or to be
discourteous, or unkind.
More like: some good old basic camaraderie is
taking place
between some old friends.
Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on
OSLIST tend to
evoke feelings of exclusion in readers who were
/not/ there
at the time?
Not sure.
<CONFESSION>
As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself
experiencing
curiously odd feelings of exclusion, when a
told-fragment of
an old OST-mythos story lacks explicit context.
So I can
follow the story, you know? The terms
"outsider" or
"clueless" or "not in the story" describe
these feelings
fairly well. "Not invited?"
I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of
/other/ members
of OSLIST ever feel this way...or if it is
"just me."
</CONFESSION>
Daniel
On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList
wrote:
“Everythingis moving.† .... Michael
-- I remember
that moment verywell. And Dan, I’m not
sure the
context, etc, would helpvery much. But just
for the
record the odd phrase popped out at one of the
International Symposia on Organization
Transformation
which happened to be taking place at a
small college
south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph
said what he
did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either.
But then againa
lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out
with no obvious
logic train. Indeed it may be that the lack
of logic
train enables the thought?
Â
Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered
about my head
for some time, quite unattached, and it
also happened
that I was working my way slowly through
one of the
masterpieces of 20^th century western
philosophy when a
fuzzy connection began to form. The work
was that of
Alfred North Whitehead, and the title:
“Process and
Reality.†I’ve been through thebook
probably 4-5
times, and I am frank to confess that I
don’t think I
really understandit. But then again
I’veheard a
number of people with much greater
credentials, tenure,
etc – say the same thing. But I did get
that ithad
something to do with, “Everything is
moving.†Andthe
more I thought and read, the more I felt
that the good
philosopher had made a small mistake on his
title. It
shouldn’t be “Process/and/ Reality,†but
rather“Process*is* Reality.â€
Â
Now, Anna Caroline we come to
“structure,†or perhaps
Ishould say the fallacy of Structure? Yes I
know –
we’ve all been taught that structure is
the precursor,
the “determinator†of everything. My
face looks as it
doesbecause of my bone structure. My life
proceeds the
way it does because of my social structure.
My business
works as it does because of the
organizational structure.
And of course, meetings happen the way they
do because of
meeting structure, which apparently is the
prime domain
of “facilitators.†And even if we hadn’t
been“taught†all this, the primacy of
structure would
appearto be blatantly obvious – as plain
as the nose on
yourface.
Â
Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out
that sometimes
the blatantly obvious is not necessarily
so. For example
just looking at things it is pretty clear
that the world
is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And
any fool can see
that we are the center of it all – Sun,
moon, and stars
whiz around us. But when we think about
it, as we have
been doing for the last 500-600 years, the
obvious
isn’t so obvious.
Â
It is reasonable to ask what would start to
make us think
differently – to the point that we begin
to question
theobvious, and even come to see things in
a different
way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it
all begins
with the perception of anomaly. Things just
don’t make
sense. Our eyes tell us one thing...
but???? And then we
start making up stories to explain the
apparently
unexplainable. We imagine different ways of
looking at
things so that the nonsensical makes sense.
Some of those
stories get pretty strange, but if they
actually work –
that is to say, helpus to see in new and
useful ways –
that’s great!
Â
There is, of course, a proper term for the
activity I
have been describing. It is called Theory
Building. And
for whatever it is worth, “theory†comes
from the
Greek “/theoreinâ//€ /– to see. In a
word, theories
are ways of looking atthings – likely
stories you might
say.
Â
Now, at long last (too long?) we come to
the odd story I
was starting to tell, to the effect that
Structure is
only a figment of our imagination, a flash
frame of a
moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful
under some
circumstances... but always partial and in
a sense
illusory. What’s“really†happening is
all flow.
Everything is moving –That’s Ralph’s
story, and I
guess it is mine too.
Â
So how did I get to such a weird condition?
It was all
about anomaly – more particularly, the
anomaly of Open
Space.Everything that I had ever learned
told me that it
could not work. Unfortunately it did (work)
– and not
just once, butevery time, hundreds of
thousands of times.
Something was definitely weird. It seemed
to me that I
had to re-consider all those things I
thought I had
learned, beginning with the basics... such
things as
Structure.
Â
Common sense would say that Open Space
works because we
somehow created a structure that enabled it
to work.
That’s theway things get done, or so I
had been taught.
But that’snot the way things happened in
Open Space.
Structure emerged along the way and only
momentarily.
Worse yet it (structure) seemed to have
little to do with
the obvious power, connections,
creativity.... all of
which created structures, and passed them
by. And
actually it always seemed to me that the
“structuresâ€
I “saw†existed only because Iwanted to
see them –
or perhaps that I “should†seethem. But
they were only
momentary wisps, figments – neverto be
mistaken for
what was really going on. Or so I’vebeen
thinking.
Â
Harrison
Â
Â
Â
Â
Â
Â
*From:*OSList
[mailto:[email protected]] *On
Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
*Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
*To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space
Technology email list
*Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
Structurelessness
Â
you remind me, harrison, of one morning
news session
years ago, somewhere, probably OT... where
ralph copleman
walked to the center of the circle and
announced, all
serious and mischievous at the same time,
"it's all
moving!" Â
Â
then put the stick down and went back to
his seat.Â
Â
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
Â
On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker
via OSList
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I was thinking that maybe the antidote to
the eventual
tyranny of structurelessness is to open
space, again and
again, until true democracy can emerge.
Â
Juan Luis
Â
*De:*OSList
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>] *En
nombre de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
*Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de
2015 12:19
*Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open
Space Technology
email list
*Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
Structurelessness
Â
Hi Daniel,
Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as
very similar in
some ways to what Ken Wilber wrote later,
about the "shadow side of the green meme".
(Each meme has
its own shadow, as well as its own gift...)
So, I love "green". I love circles, I love
non-hierarchy,
etc.
And, part of the "shadow side of the green
meme" is how
ideologically anti-structure it can become...
to the point where some people may not even
agree that
OST does, in fact, offer a very simple and
effective
structure.
By way contrast, think of a situation where
group of
people (who don't know about OST, and/or,
who are having
a power struggle around "which process to
use",
and/or.... ) might easily spending a whole
weekend
arguing /about /"how to self-organize
ourselves"... with
a great deal more pain and frustration and
a great deal
less value.
whereas, instead, IF someone knows about
OST, and, a
clear invitation has been extended, and,
there is enough
trust/suspension of disbelief so that
participants are
willing to enter into that format,
then, we end up with a very simple and
elegant structure
that allows people to self-organize
beautifully....
at least that's how i see it! :-)
with all best wishes,
Rosa
Â
*/Rosa Zubizarreta/*
/Developing Participatory and
Co-intelligent Leadership
Author of *From Conflict to Creative
Collaboration*
<http://www.conflict2creativity.com>
<http://www.conflict2creativity.com>/
/For more resources and learning
opportunities, visit
*<http://www.DiaPraxis.com>
<http://www.DiaPraxis.com>www.DiaPraxis.com
<http://www.DiaPraxis.com>
<http://www.DiaPraxis.com> <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*/
Â
On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel
Mezick via OSList
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
I find this essay extremely interesting. I
hope you do, too.
Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
".../the idea of "structurelessness" does
not prevent the
formation of informal structures, only
formal ones."
/
Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement.
Quick summary
of the main points: from the essay...
ï‚·/During the years in which the women's
liberation
movement has been taking shape, a great
emphasis has been
placed on what are called leaderless,
structureless
groups as the main -- if not sole --
organizational form
of the movement. /
ï‚·/The idea of "structurelessness,"
however, has moved
from a healthy counter to those tendencies,
to becoming a
goddess in its own right./
ï‚·/Contrary to what we would like to
believe, there is
no such thing as a structureless group. /
ï‚·/This means that to strive for a
structureless group
is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim
at an
"objective" news story, "value-free" social
science, or a
"free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is
about as
realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the
idea becomes
a smokescreen for the strong or the lucky
to establish
unquestioned hegemony over others. /
ï‚·/This hegemony can be so easily
established because
the idea of "structurelessness" does not
prevent the
formation of informal structures, only
formal ones. /
ï‚·/For everyone to have the opportunity to
be involved
in a given group and to participate in its
activities,
the structure must be explicit, not
implicit. /
ï‚·/It is this informal structure,
particularly in
Unstructured groups, which forms the basis
for elites./
Just in case you have not yet encountered
the full text
of this essay, here it is:
THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
Regards,
Daniel
http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about
http://www.DanielMezick.com
203 915 7248 <tel:203%20915%207248>
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<http://newtechusa.net/blog/> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>.
Twitter
<http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>
<http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
Examine my new book:The Culture Game
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools
for the Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/>
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and
Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston
<http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>
<http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
--
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
--
Daniel Mezick, President
New Technology Solutions Inc.
(203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)
Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>
<http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
<http://newtechusa.net/blog/> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>.
Twitter
<http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>
<http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
Examine my new book:The Culture Game
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/>
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and
Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston
<http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>
<http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
_______________________________________________
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--
Daniel Mezick, President
New Technology Solutions Inc.
(203) 915 7248 (cell)
Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
<http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
Examine my new book:The Culture Game
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
_______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To
post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send
an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage
your subscription click below:
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
Past archives can be viewed here:
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To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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Past archives can be viewed here:
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