Eisler's cooperator vs. dominator framework, and Oppenheimer's conquest theory of the state, are possibly good complements to each other. Dominator societies with patriarchal sky-father religions and authoritarian child-rearing practices could be usefully treated as part of the same causal network as the class state.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Roberto, I really appreciated your contribution to the discussion > around 'reform versus radical revolution'. Our ability to tolerate > differences with people who are basically on the same side, seems crucial to > me in overcoming the fragmentation and infighting which besets left > activists, which Occupy did much to temporarily overcome. > > Equally I appreciate your reference to Riane Eisler and the dichotomy > between dominator and partnership structures, which for me compliments, > perhaps even replaces class and gender power structures, for its explanatory > depth. > > The necessity for renewable energy to be distributed rather than centralised > is a central tenet of Rifkin's Third Industrial Revolution. And the > application to agriculture is embodied in Via Campesina's campaign for food > sovereignty and agroecology, both topics that have been discussed in these > lists. > > The evolution towards something more human needs to include caring feelings > which Rifkin attempted in his The Empathic Civilisation. > > Thanks again > > Anna > > > > On Aug 7, 2016 5:33 AM, "Roberto Verzola" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different >> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to > > But a lot of misjudgments are made, and some who think themselves very > radical misjudge people who want fundamental change too, as people who just > want to protect the present system. > > Furthermore, even those who want fundamental change will disagree among > themselves up to what point change must happen. Are you just against high > interest rates (but low rates are ok)? Are you against the entire principle > of charging interest? Or maybe you are also against fractional reserve > banking? But others are against the whole idea of fiat money too. Or are you > for the abolition of money in general? Or perhaps against markets in > general? Are you against specific bad corporations only, or against the > corporate form of business in general, or against business in general? If > some are not against money in general but only about some aspects of it, > does that make them reformists now because because they want to retain other > aspects of the money system? Or the market system for that matter. Someone's > radical is somebody else's reformist. > > In such an incredibly complex situation, especially when activists continue > to educate themselves along and their positions may change over time, it is > not good to set onesself up as judge and brand people this or that, > especially on an open list, as if one had exclusive monopoly over truth. > > In fact, most on this list are right some of the time and wrong some of the > time. > > On a different note: I'm currently reading this (admittedly old--2004) book > THE GREAT ADVENTURE: Towards a Fully Human Theory of Evolution by David Loye > (ed.). It refers to "evolution theorist" Riane Eisler. It says Eisler in her > contributed article "brings to life how, underlying the full range of human > relationships from intimate to international are two basic social > structures: the domination model and the partnership model". Eisler "shows > how the tension between these two models has shaped history, and how the > outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or extinction for our > species." > > Eisler might as well have written about the client/server vs the P2P > model... In my current work on renewable energy, I am also coming across the > same tension between the centralized power generation model and the > distributed generation model. A similar tension exists in agriculture and > many other areas, as Eisler has observed. Their efforts might yet provide > another illuminating context to the P2P movement. > > The book itself describes an ongoing effort to marry psychology with the > theory of evolution towards a new theory of *human* evolution that goes far > beyond the "survival of the fittest" cliche of neo-darwinists. > > Greetings to all, > > Roberto Verzola > Philippines > > > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:33:19 -0500 > Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different >> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to >> a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the >> transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants >> to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power. >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity >> >> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a >> >> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it; >> >> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I >> >> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of >> >> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of >> >> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians. >> > >> > >> > Dear Orsan, >> > >> > it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton >> > and >> > reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that >> > we >> > are reformists. >> > >> > Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was >> > defined, >> > >> > but, I do consider this: >> > >> > * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death >> > when >> > the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier >> > french >> > was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing defeats >> > of >> > those that did not succeed >> > >> > * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at >> > least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at >> > national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention >> > civil, gender rights etc .. >> > >> > * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not >> > against reforms >> > >> > * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social >> > and >> > political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power, but >> > is >> > there any evidence that global south workers for example are >> > revolutionary >> > .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social >> > and >> > labor improvements >> > >> > People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural >> > reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not >> > opposed to >> > reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win >> > >> > we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and >> > practices >> > >> > yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding >> > scale >> > that always ends up with the enemies of the people >> > >> > it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the 99% >> > who >> > do not share your views .. >> > >> > I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a >> > cooperative >> > commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting >> > for >> > the betterment of their fellow humans >> > >> > they want reforms, but they are not reformists, >> > >> > Michel >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >> > http://commonstransition.org >> > >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> > >> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> > >> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > NetworkedLabour mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kevin Carson >> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org >> >> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow >> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous >> >> Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto >> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com >> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> >> Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net >> Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by >> making a donation. Thank you for your support. >> https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation >> >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > -- > Roberto Verzola <[email protected]> > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > > Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net > Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net > > Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by > making a donation. Thank you for your support. > https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation > > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > > Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net > Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net > > Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by > making a donation. Thank you for your support. > https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation > > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > -- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support. https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
