Dear Anna, I'm glad it was useful. I'm currently engaged in work that will explore the potential of RE-based microgrids as commons. I also coordinate a farming network that promotes the system of rice intensification (SRI) in the Philippines. Earlier I had done a lot of work on the information economy. So I have seen first hand these tensions between centralized vs decentralized, domination vs partnership models, and client/server vs P2P.
Greetings, Roberto On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 22:11:58 +0100 Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Roberto, I really appreciated your contribution to the discussion > around 'reform versus radical revolution'. Our ability to tolerate > differences with people who are basically on the same side, seems crucial > to me in overcoming the fragmentation and infighting which besets left > activists, which Occupy did much to temporarily overcome. > > Equally I appreciate your reference to Riane Eisler and the dichotomy > between dominator and partnership structures, which for me compliments, > perhaps even replaces class and gender power structures, for its > explanatory depth. > > The necessity for renewable energy to be distributed rather than > centralised is a central tenet of Rifkin's Third Industrial Revolution. > And the application to agriculture is embodied in Via Campesina's campaign > for food sovereignty and agroecology, both topics that have been discussed > in these lists. > > The evolution towards something more human needs to include caring feelings > which Rifkin attempted in his The Empathic Civilisation. > > Thanks again > > Anna > > > > On Aug 7, 2016 5:33 AM, "Roberto Verzola" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different > > things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to > > But a lot of misjudgments are made, and some who think themselves very > radical misjudge people who want fundamental change too, as people who just > want to protect the present system. > > Furthermore, even those who want fundamental change will disagree among > themselves up to what point change must happen. Are you just against high > interest rates (but low rates are ok)? Are you against the entire principle > of charging interest? Or maybe you are also against fractional reserve > banking? But others are against the whole idea of fiat money too. Or are > you for the abolition of money in general? Or perhaps against markets in > general? Are you against specific bad corporations only, or against the > corporate form of business in general, or against business in general? If > some are not against money in general but only about some aspects of it, > does that make them reformists now because because they want to retain > other aspects of the money system? Or the market system for that matter. > Someone's radical is somebody else's reformist. > > In such an incredibly complex situation, especially when activists continue > to educate themselves along and their positions may change over time, it is > not good to set onesself up as judge and brand people this or that, > especially on an open list, as if one had exclusive monopoly over truth. > > In fact, most on this list are right some of the time and wrong some of the > time. > > On a different note: I'm currently reading this (admittedly old--2004) book > THE GREAT ADVENTURE: Towards a Fully Human Theory of Evolution by David > Loye (ed.). It refers to "evolution theorist" Riane Eisler. It says Eisler > in her contributed article "brings to life how, underlying the full range > of human relationships from intimate to international are two basic social > structures: the domination model and the partnership model". Eisler "shows > how the tension between these two models has shaped history, and how the > outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or extinction for our > species." > > Eisler might as well have written about the client/server vs the P2P > model... In my current work on renewable energy, I am also coming across > the same tension between the centralized power generation model and the > distributed generation model. A similar tension exists in agriculture and > many other areas, as Eisler has observed. Their efforts might yet provide > another illuminating context to the P2P movement. > > The book itself describes an ongoing effort to marry psychology with the > theory of evolution towards a new theory of *human* evolution that goes far > beyond the "survival of the fittest" cliche of neo-darwinists. > > Greetings to all, > > Roberto Verzola > Philippines > > > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:33:19 -0500 > Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different > > things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to > > a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the > > transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants > > to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power. > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > >> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity > > >> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a > > >> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it; > > >> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I > > >> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of > > >> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of > > >> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians. > > > > > > > > > Dear Orsan, > > > > > > it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton > and > > > reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that > we > > > are reformists. > > > > > > Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was > defined, > > > > > > but, I do consider this: > > > > > > * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death > when > > > the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier > french > > > was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing > defeats of > > > those that did not succeed > > > > > > * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at > > > least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at > > > national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention > > > civil, gender rights etc .. > > > > > > * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not > > > against reforms > > > > > > * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social > and > > > political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power, > but is > > > there any evidence that global south workers for example are > revolutionary > > > .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social > and > > > labor improvements > > > > > > People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural > > > reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not > opposed to > > > reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win > > > > > > we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and > > > practices > > > > > > yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding > scale > > > that always ends up with the enemies of the people > > > > > > it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the > 99% who > > > do not share your views .. > > > > > > I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a > cooperative > > > commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting > for > > > the betterment of their fellow humans > > > > > > they want reforms, but they are not reformists, > > > > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: > http://commonstransition.org > > > > > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > > > > > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > NetworkedLabour mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kevin Carson > > Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory > > Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org > > > > "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow > > "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous > > > > Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto > > http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com > > Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > > > > Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net > > > > Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by > making a donation. Thank you for your support. > > https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation > > > > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > -- > Roberto Verzola <[email protected]> > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > > Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net > Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net > > Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by > making a donation. Thank you for your support. > https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation > > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Roberto Verzola <[email protected]> _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support. https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
