Absolutely, and thanks! If I'd read Mason and more autonomist stuff like Dyer-Witheford at the time I wrote that, I'd probably have made a better argument.
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 10:30 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote: > > Kevin I guess this give more derailed insights of your position, hope it is > okay to share here: > https://c4ss.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SomeRevCarson.pdf > > Orsan > > >> On 7 aug. 2016, at 04:33, Kevin Carson >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different >> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to >> a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the >> transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants >> to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power. >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity >>>> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a >>>> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it; >>>> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I >>>> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of >>>> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of >>>> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians. >>> >>> >>> Dear Orsan, >>> >>> it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton and >>> reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that we >>> are reformists. >>> >>> Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was defined, >>> >>> but, I do consider this: >>> >>> * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death when >>> the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier french >>> was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing defeats of >>> those that did not succeed >>> >>> * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at >>> least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at >>> national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention >>> civil, gender rights etc .. >>> >>> * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not >>> against reforms >>> >>> * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social and >>> political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power, but is >>> there any evidence that global south workers for example are revolutionary >>> .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social and >>> labor improvements >>> >>> People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural >>> reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not opposed to >>> reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win >>> >>> we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and >>> practices >>> >>> yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding scale >>> that always ends up with the enemies of the people >>> >>> it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the 99% who >>> do not share your views .. >>> >>> I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a cooperative >>> commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting for >>> the betterment of their fellow humans >>> >>> they want reforms, but they are not reformists, >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org >>> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetworkedLabour mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kevin Carson >> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org >> >> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow >> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous >> >> Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto >> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com >> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> >> Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net >> Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by >> making a donation. Thank you for your support. >> https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation >> >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > > Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net > Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net > > Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by > making a donation. Thank you for your support. > https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation > > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support. https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
