Way off topic, inflammatory thread, so I'll try to keep it short
and limit myself to the one comment and hope to remain reasonable.
(I've made comments (mostly lighter in tone) to a few other folks
off-list.)
Lewis, Gerald wrote:
> Duhhhh, the creationists started the fish thingy....
You're tarring all Christians with an awfully broad brush there, brother.
The fish symbol goes _way_ back (possibly all the way back, but I haven't
double-checked that). "Creationism" wasn't a word or an argument then.
The groundwork for Darwin's observations had not been laid, so there
wasn't evolution to contrast creationism with.
> why are they surpised
> someone else commndeered it for their own statement... Duhhhh, why should I
> care if the creationsists get off to a "wrong mood"? They put me in a wrong
> mood already.
The tone of other posts until this one was either informative or
an attempt at touching the topic lightly. Yours crossed the line
into rude. Perhaps you meant to, and perhaps your words merely
got away from you; I don't know and I won't try to guess. I can
let the rudeness go and just comment on your misconception of the
meaning of the fish, but I point out your rudeness here to show
why the tone of the thread shifted.
Let's face it: although even I, a Christian, can see that the
Darwin fish is an amusing way of making a particular comment in
an ongoing social debate, it _is_ a parody of a particular group's
religious symbol (it's equivalent to parodying the cross, though
fewer people realize that). That's guaranteed (and intended) to
get the attention of that group in a hurry. Why should you be
surprised that some Christians (those with less of a sense of humour,
those with a chip on their shoulder, those who're feeling "attacked"
in other areas, etc.) are affronted by a parody _designed_ to give
them affront?!
Okay, perhaps _creationists_ put you in a bad mood. I'm not too
fond of them either. Do _all_ Christians put you in a bad mood?
Or only the obnoxious ones? (Yeah, obnoxious people are _everywhere_,
though I guess I'd have a little trouble imagining an obnoxious
Taoist until I meet one someday.) If all do, _why_? What about
the ones who are able to tell the difference between religion and
science?
As a Christian, I believe in _creation_. As a scientist, I have
to say that the theory of evolution best fits the data and has
not been disproven; therefore it is most likely true, and if not
true, is at least a good explanation until we come up with something
better. As a Christian, I reconcile these with a concept known as
"directed evolution" (which, IIRC, Darwin himself suggested, did
he not?) That is, that evolution is the mechanism through which
the Creator works. As a scientist, I see that there is no way to
prove or disprove the existence of God, and therefore my belief
in directed evolution as opposed to just-plain-random-evolution
is a nonscientific belief, and I can tell them apart. Speaking
in a science context, I leave God out of it -- and if I were
teaching a high-school science class, I would _mention_ directed
evolution as something some people believe and explain that in
the absence of evidence we don't have and aren't likely to ever
have, _science_ does not support it.
While I do not speak for all of Christendom, neither am I unusual
in this.
"Creationists" are in contrast to those who believe in, or support
the teaching of, the theory of evolution. Ergo I, and a great
many other Christians, are not "creationists". (And some Christians
who _are_ creationists are still able to realize that creationism
is not science, and that "creation science" is a bogon.)
The stylized fish is _not_ a "creationist" symbol; it is a Christian
one. Play with it if you like, but understand what it is that you're
playing with, and that you're hitting more targets than you meant
to, and that you might not be sending quite the message you think
you are when you do so. Do not dismiss the consequences -- offending
those whose faith you have just mocked -- so lightly. Either
glory in being able to piss them off, or apologize for doing so,
but don't say, "Gee, why should they be upset?"
-- Glenn
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