> I think the big EU driving issue was that we are manufacturing electronics > that get thrown away because they cost too much to repair or are obsolete > and no longer have any value... things like cell phones, and computers, > etc... >
Well, I think the big EU driving issue is to erect a "non-tariff trade barrier". The World Trade Organization, of which the EU and the US are members, often rules that a particular country's import rules are barriers to trade, a.k.a. protectionism. As the EU implements these lead-free requirements, it is a way to lock out or impede the US competition. For the EU, it's a no-lose situation: 1) they can appear to be doing the environmentally responsible (greenie) thing, 2) they can make the US look like foot-dragging environment-polluting fools, and 3) they can lock out or impede US competition. Because the lead-free movement is so "greenie correct", there can be no reasonable opposition to it, right? Where does lead come from? Guess what, they dig it out of the ground! Yep, that's right. Lead ore. So what's the big deal with burying it back in the ground when it's usefulness is done? Now, granted, you don't want huge concentrations of it in a small area, where there will not be enough clay in the soil to absorb and contain the lead. Recycling CRTs, each of which contain several pounds of lead and few other substances, is justifiable. Recycling PCBs, which contain a few grams of lead and many other substances, is not justifiable. I enjoy nature and green spaces as much as anyone, but some of the greenies' ideas of conservation are scientifically unsound. This lead-free solder is one of them. IMO, the worst thing the electronics industry can do to the environment is to manufacture devices whose lead-free solder joints fail quickly. Let's fill up the landfill with failed lead-free devices, that's environmentally responsible...NOT! What's my solution to pollution? Make stuff that lasts and can be upgraded by firmware, as much as is practical. If that stuff contains harmful substances, make it even more reliable so it won't have to be thrown away in large quantities. Why will my solution not be adopted by most of the industry? Because it disrupts the business models of planned obsolesence, planned replacement, and forced consumption. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brooks,Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Protel EDA Discussion List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 4:08 PM Subject: RE: [PEDA] Lead free re design > Good point John... > > I wonder how long it will be until they decide that copper or tin or epoxy > board material is a hazard to the environment. Some of the trace elements in > the parts or Pb Free solder could be more hazardous than the lead we had in > our solder joints... or for that matter, think about the strip-mining and > production of the raw materials used, when they are increased due to higher > demand they may produce larger amounts of pollution that dwarf the little > bit of lead they saved from putting in a local landfill. Hardly anyone is > looking at the big picture while they race to keep up with the EU "Joneses". > > I think the big EU driving issue was that we are manufacturing electronics > that get thrown away because they cost too much to repair or are obsolete > and no longer have any value... things like cell phones, and computers, > etc... > > Rework or recycling electronics is labor intensive and really only sees much > activity in low wage countries that can afford to pay for the labor of > recycling parts or the metals in them. So if we want to avoid burying them > in landfills and having the materials leach into the ground water system, > the premise is we need to change our manufacturing processes... > > Some are questioning the validity of the argument. Even as our industry > rushes headlong over the 'cliff' to adopt the EU mandate. So I would guess > we are going to see it get much worse before it gets any better... > > I think the jury is still out on the EU mandate, or RoHS as you pointed > out... Still, it always pays to be informed and know your options... I hate > it when I get that nagging feeling that I'm behaving like an industrial > 'lemming'... Makes me want to shout "WAKE UP!!". > > That reminds me of the saying... "When you aren't the lead dog... the view > never changes." ;) I just hope they know where we are going... > > Best regards, > > Bill Brooks - KG6VVP > PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. > Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 > e-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.dtwc.com > http://pcbwizards.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John A. Ross [RSDTV] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 11:00 AM > To: 'Protel EDA Discussion List' > Subject: RE: [PEDA] Lead free re design > > Bill > > Would be worth noting that the RoHS Directive 2002/95/EC applies to more > than just lead content. I > recently cam across this first hand a few months back when I visited the > Sunon factory in China, the > RoHS directive applies also to the plastic body of their cooling fans as > well. I believe some solder > masks and other PCB related processes have to be addressed as well, although > the PCB plant we use > has already changed, our boards were always flash gold anyway, never used > HASL since around 95/96. > > Lead is just a small part of it, it's a fore runner to the WEEE Directive > 2002/96/EC & ELV Directive > 2000/53/EC > > Currently on our own lines we run a mixture of pb and pbfree devices, but > currently still with > solder pastes and bar which is pb based. We have had many issues with > different manufacturers > devices, especially fine pitch devices by some manufacturers who have > included tin bismuth as a > finish. Reconfiguration for us does not involve much for our SMT lines as > the key component, oven, > should be OK. Our Soltec wave soldering machine however will require > refitting of a new solder pot > with different material, not because it needs it, but as a safety measure as > any internal damage to > the pot might end up causing a problem with the new pb free alloy in the pot > and corrode a hole to > the outside world, or Soltec are just trying to sell us a new pot! > > We have already decommissioned our old prototype line as we will not be > using it again. So anyone > wants a really deal on a Seho 1135F dual wave soldering machine with > atomising spray flux unit & > full solder pot, Reddish 5 Zone convection oven, DEK 248 printer with Dek > Align fitted, Vision > Systems magnifiers/inspection system with oblique viewing heads and a spare > monster compressor and > air dryer to boot are welcome to contact me directly. Placement machines > already gone, sorry. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:10 PM > > To: 'Protel EDA Discussion List' > > Subject: RE: [PEDA] Lead free re design > > > > Hi Dennis... > > > > There are many people talking about the effects of the EU > > mandate to move to lead-free assembly of PCB's. If you have > > not heard they in essence banned all lead containing > > electronics from coming into their countries. If you have > > visited the IPC sites you might want to check out their Lead > > Free, Technet and the IPC Designers Council listservers for > > more discussion on the topic... > > > > http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3 > > > > > > Although I have not gone through it yet, the IPC has a > > website for the Pb free topic at http://leadfree.ipc.org/ > > > > Also there is a website for Lead-free called http://www.lead-free.com/ > > > > As far as my research has told me, the biggest impact to most > > western suppliers will be those that must do business in the > > EU. There is no lead free requirement to sell products in the > > US or most of the 3rd world for that matter. Also the > > reliability of the process is still in question and needs to > > be proven with exhaustive testing. > > > > Pb free components have mostly been Pb free all along... but > > it's a great marketing ploy to get folks to buy their > > components... There are some that have switched processes and > > soon you will have a hard time finding parts that have lead > > in them at all. > > > > That will not make them incompatible with normal solder... as > > long as you don't have a customer in the EU you can still use > > the tin/lead soldering process on 'lead-free' parts. > > > > Changing over to the Lead free assembly process will be > > expensive. It will drive the price of electronics higher and > > the reliability lower according to some that have spoken on > > the subject. > > > > I would advise caution and lots of reading before heading > > down that road... > > there are seminars and events planned for 2005 that will > > focus on the subject, and it would be wise to attend some and > > see what issues there are that could affect your business. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Bill Brooks - KG6VVP > > PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. > > Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 > > e-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 9:35 AM > > To: Protel EDA Discussion List > > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Lead free re design > > > > > > i may have posted this before but don't recall an answer > > > > someone has asked me if there are *design* issues re pc bd > > designs and > > the movement to lead-free > > > > i said i didn't think so, but then i wondered about the elevated > > temperatures and surface finsishes > > > > what is the proper call out for surface finish of a pcb for > > lead free ? > > and are there any actual design issues (as opposed to call-out issues) > > > > and also > > can you use the new lead free components in a standard 'lead-full' > > process ? (thanks for 'lead-full' Ivan) > > > > and what about cleaning under CSPs and BGAs ? > > is the standard water based OA fluz a problem ? > > seems like it would be > > > > Dennis Saputelli > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > _________ > > Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 > > 2851 21st Street Fax: 415-647-3003 > > San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com > > > > > > Dale Broemer wrote: > > > What a complete waste of my time. I wonder how many users > > we loose on > > > this list that get tired of reading such off topic junk! > > I'm ready to > > > leave myself! I'm much too busy to read anything other than what may > > > benefit my use of protel from this list!!! > > > > > > Please......! > > > > > > Dale > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:34 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [PEDA] Cannot locate server initialization file:, > > > Answer2053 > > > > > > Exactly what has your rambling dissertation on voting got to do with > > > Protel, Mr Lomax? As self-proclaimed and self-appointed > > chairman of the > > > Protel User's Group, I would think you'd have a little more > > respect for > > > the purpose of this group than to use it once again for your droll, > > > pedantic dissertations. > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Abd > > ul-Rahman Lomax > > >>Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 1:26 PM > > >>To: Protel EDA Discussion List > > >>Subject: Re: [PEDA] Cannot locate server initialization file:, > > >>Answer2053 > > >> > > >>At 04:15 PM 12/3/2004, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: > > >> > > >>>BTW, this "incrementing as an unsigned integer, but treating as a > > >>>signed integer" was the cause of some electronic voting machines > > >>>counting up to > > >>>32767 votes, and the next vote cast set the count back to -32768. > > >>>Since there was no paper ballot as a backup, there was no way > > >> > > >>to recount. > > >> > > >>>Wonderful, eh? > > >> > > >>It seems to have worked for someone.... > > >> > > >>It would not be necessary to recount until about 65K votes had > > >>been accumulated, since all that would be needed would be > > >>reinterpreting the output. In fact, presumably it would be > > >>quite simple to distinguish between > > >>1 vote and 65537, so quite a lot of votes would have to be > > >>accumulated before it was an unrecoverable situation. > > >> > > >>I would not think that the problem was with individual voting > > >>machines but with a system used to accumulate results from > > >>voting machines, since a single voting machine would not > > >>ordinarily have anywhere near so many votes cast on it. And > > >>presumably the individual machine results were preserved. > > >>If not, truly an insane system, where any breakdown anywhere > > >>trashes the results. No-paper-trail voting is totally insane, > > >>and, in fact, high-tech voting not involving simple paper > > >>ballots is likewise crazy, unless you want to be able to > > >>manipulate the totals without making it easy to detect; > > >>(Insane, or crazy like a fox?) > > >> > > >>I just look this up and, yes, the problem was with a > > >>tabulator, not with voting machines, per se. > > >> > > >>What is so hard about running a marked ballot through a cheap > > >>scanner feeding a simple computer (i.e., the kind that are > > >>being tossed every day) in order to count them, keeping the > > >>paper ballots if the results are challenged? > > >> > > >>Well, let me think.... (1) it would not create new business > > >>for the cronies of those in power. (2) it would not make it > > >>easier to manipulate the results. (3) newer, higher tech, is > > >>better, isn't it? > > >> > > >>My town (population approx 1000) still uses paper ballots > > >>which are then fed into a device which is essential a box with > > >>a hand crank so that you can only put ballots in, you can't > > >>take them out without unlocking the back of the box. I think > > >>the device is well over a hundred years old. Votes are then > > >>tallied by hand and reported by the town clerk. Yes, I've seen > > >>ballot-counting problems in the town, but that is not a > > >>function of the technology but of carelessness on the part of > > >>town officials. The solution is not thousands of dollars for > > >>equipment but a little thought put into how ballots are counted. > > >> > > >>www.beyondpolitics.org > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>____________________________________________________________ > > >>You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > >> > > >>To Post messages: > > >>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > >>Unsubscribe and Other Options: > > >>http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > >> > > >>Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >> > > >>Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > > > > > To Post messages: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Unsubscribe and Other Options: > > > http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > > > > > Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > > > > > To Post messages: > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Unsubscribe and Other Options: > > > http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > > > > > Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > > > To Post messages: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Unsubscribe and Other Options: > > http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > > > Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > > > To Post messages: > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Unsubscribe and Other Options: > > http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > > > Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > To Post messages: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Unsubscribe and Other Options: > http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > ____________________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > > To Post messages: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Unsubscribe and Other Options: > http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > > Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > ____________________________________________________________ You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum To Post messages: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe and Other Options: http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
