Gary R., List: I am not familiar enough with Spencer-Brown to say anything about his concept of "reentry" or its proposed application to semiosis, but I would like to offer some comments on other aspects of your post.
GR: In footnote 22 of "Temporal Synechism" you note that Andre de Tienne asks the question "to what extent does the flow of time regulate the flow of signs, and to what extent does the flow of signs influence or determine the flow of time?" As I also say in that footnote, De Tienne does not just pose this question, he explores it in detail in a 2015 paper ( https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279513621_The_Flow_of_Time_and_the_Flow_of_Signs_A_Basis_for_Peirce's_Cosmosemiotics). My own starting point for answering it is at the top of the next page (260)--"The close relationship between logical and temporal sequences suggests that the entire universe is a sign, specifically an argument: 'a vast representamen, a great symbol of God's purpose, working out its conclusions in living realities' (CP 5.119,EP 2:193, 1903)." In short, the flow of time and the flow of signs are effectively one and the same--time is a true continuum because the entire universe is a true *semiosic *continuum. The latter is not only (like time) a *topical* continuum, such that the whole is ontologically prior to the parts, which are indefinite until deliberately marked off for a purpose; it is also a *hyperbolic *continuum, proceeding from an initial state in the infinite past toward a *different *final state in the infinite future, both of which are hypothetical limits that are never actually reached. GR: Some argue, with considerable textual support from Peirce, that sign (representamen), object, and interpretant are but correlates within a triadic semiotic relation, others that the triadic relation itself *is *the Sign: that is, that one could argue that the Sign is not simply the representamen or the representamen plus its object, that the Sign is the whole triadic relation of representamen, object, and interpretant *ensemble* . As you and other List members are well aware, I am in the former camp and quite vociferously reject the latter position. As I see it, it is an even bigger terminological mistake than using "instant" colloquially instead of carefully distinguishing it from "moment," because it is even more conducive of conceptual confusion. The triadic relation is "representing" or (more generally) "mediating," while "sign" designates its first corollate--*that which* represents the object for the interpretant, or (more generally) *that which* mediates between the object and the interpretant. GR: In this view, these three elements together form an inseparable unity such that if any part were missing, the sign would be incomplete If this is the primary concern motivating the widespread misuse of "sign" as referring to the triadic relation instead of its first correlate, then there is a simple and much better alternative. Instead of saying (incorrectly) that the absence of an object or interpretant renders the sign "incomplete," we should say (correctly) that *every *sign by definition *has *an object and (at least potentially) an interpretant, such that if either of these were missing, then *there would be no sign at all*. More specifically, I would say that every sign has a dynamical object, an immediate object, an immediate interpretant, and a final interpretant; the *only *correlate that (at least theoretically) could *ever* be missing is a dynamical interpretant, i.e., an *actual *effect of the sign (token). This is because the immediate object and immediate interpretant are internal to the sign (type) itself, while the dynamical object and final interpretant are the other two (external) correlates of the *genuine *triadic relation of representing or (more generally) mediating. GR: In Peirce’s semeiotic, the interpretant is itself most typically a new (or modified) sign, so the triad continually regenerates itself in endless semiosis. Seen this way, the Sign is not three static parts, but an active, self-referential loop. In my view, this description has it backwards (bottom-up)--again, I maintain that the continuous whole is ontologically prior to its parts (top-down), which are indefinite until deliberately marked off for a purpose. The first step is *prescinding *an individual sign of interest from the real and continuous process of semiosis, followed by identifying the other correlates of its triadic relation. These are "static parts" of semiosis only in the same hypothetical (but useful) sense that instants are "static parts" of time, points are "static parts" of space, and positions are "static parts" of motion--not real parts, but *entia rationis*. Put another way, semiosis is no more built up of discrete signs--nor even discrete triadic relations--than time is built up of discrete instants, space is built up of discrete points, and motion is built up of discrete positions. GR: Thus, from the standpoint of 'reentry', the sign is the living triadic distinction continually folding back on itself--*not *a static correlate, but a process. This is another unfortunate conflation of two distinct concepts--as Ben U. already pointed out, "semiosis" is the term for the real and continuous *process*, while "sign" is the term for the first *correlate *prescinded from it as an individual artifact of analysis. GR: In this view, it is only as an analytical contrivance in speculative grammar that the distinction of object - sign - interpretant as correlates holds. With this, I happily agree. As you rightly noted, "the interpretant is itself most typically a new (or modified) sign," and Peirce also maintains that the object must likewise be of the nature a sign. "Every sign stands for an object independent of itself; but it can only be a sign of that object in so far as that object is itself of the nature of a sign or thought" (CP 1.538, 1903). "Whatever is capable of being represented is itself of a representative nature" (CP 8.268, 1903). "Thus, it is said to be a necessary result of the analysis that the object represented by the sign, and whose characters are independent of such representation, should itself be of the nature of a sign, so that its characters are not independent of *all *representation" (EP 2:328, 1904). In short, although "*really being* and *being represented* are very different" (EP 2:303, NEM 4:239, 1901), really being and being representable--and thus being of the nature of a sign--are the same. "The very entelechy of being lies in being representable. ... This appears mystical and mysterious simply because we insist on remaining blind to what is plain, that there can be no reality which has not the life of a symbol" (EP 2:324, NEM 4:262, 1901). Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 5:39 PM Gary Richmond <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, List, > > In footnote 22 of "Temporal Synechism" you note that Andre de Tienne asks > the question "to what extent does the flow of time regulate the flow of > signs, and to what extent does the flow of signs influence or determine the > flow of time?" This post is meant to begin a discussion of that question. > > Several days ago I had an off List exchange with Helmut Ralien which > included some comments of mine on an earlier Peirce-L post of his in which > he introduced the Spencer-Brown concept of 'reentry' into a discussion of > whether the sign (hereafter I'll use lowercase 'sign' to mean > 'representamen') was a mere correlate within the object - sign - > interpretant triad, or whether *the triad itself in toto* constituted the > Sign (uppercase 'Sign' standing for that idea in this post). > > I thought his introduction of Spencer-Brown's notion into the discussion > was brilliant, but I had some trouble following it. So, I made a few > suggestions as to how it might otherwise be approached. Here, with some > modifications related to the content of the recent thread on Time, is my > suggestion of an approach to the Spencer-Brown 'reentry' idea. > > Some argue, with considerable textual support from Peirce, that sign > (representamen), object, and interpretant are but correlates within a > triadic semiotic relation, others that the triadic relation itself *is* the > Sign: that is, that one could argue that the Sign is not simply the > representamen or the representamen plus its object, that the Sign is the > whole triadic relation of representamen, object, and interpretant > *ensemble.* In this view, these three elements together form an > inseparable unity such that if any part were missing, the sign would be > incomplete -- just as, if it were possible (which it obviously is not), if > any of the three 'parts' of a temporal "durée" were to be missing, there > would be no Time. > > Spencer-Brown’s concept of 'reentry' might help clarify the matter by > showing how a distinction can fold back into itself. In *Laws of Form*, > 'reentry' means that a distinction reenters the space it marks, creating > self-reference and recursion. In Peirce’s semeiotic, the interpretant is > itself most typically a new (or modified) sign, so the triad continually > regenerates itself in endless semiosis. > > Seen this way, the Sign is *no*t three static parts, but an active, > self-referential loop. Reentry suggests that what makes a Sign is not the > mere coexistence of sign, object, and interpretant, but *the dynamic > process of the triadic relation reentering itself through the production of > further interpretants. Thus, from the standpoint of 'reentry', the sign is > the living triadic distinction continually folding back on itself -- not a > static correlate, but a process.* > > In this view, it is only as an analytical contrivance in speculative > grammar that the distinction of object - sign - interpretant as correlates > holds. Rather, as it is in the *analysis *of Time, the central 'part' of > the object - representamen - interpretant triad is 'more present'. That is > all. > > Best, > > Gary R >
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