Jack, List: I did not intend to be harsh, just precise about definitions from a Peircean standpoint--meaning corresponds to the *interpretant* of a sign, not its *object*; identifying the sign's *dynamical *object is the role of its *immediate *object. For an index, this is true regardless of whether its relation with its dynamical object is *existential *(genuine), like smoke pointing to fire, or *referential *(degenerate), like a relative pronoun (CP 2.310, 1901). I am guessing that the standard technical terminology of contemporary linguistics is different, especially where a Saussurean approach is being employed.
Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 5:35 AM Jack Cody <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, List, > > Just on indexical meaning. I understand your point, but I think you are > overly harsh. What I mean here is that I think you can understand precisely > what Silverstein is getting at without requiring a "purely" orthodox > reference delimitation. However, within that delimitation I would argue the > following. > Peirce's "pure index" (CP 2.306), as you state, forces attention to its > object through existential connection without description - like smoke > pointing to fire. However, Silverstein's entire point is that "wine talk" > operates similarly: the register *doesn't describe class but indexically > points to it through pure usage*, becoming a near-Peircean "degenerate > index" (CP 2.283) where the connection is mediated by ideology rather than > physics. > The key parallel: > > 1. Peircean pure index: Direct, non-representational pointing > (weathervane → wind) > 2. Silversteinian indexical order: Mediated social pointing (wine talk > → class) > 3. Both rely on the sign's ability to "force attention to the object > without describing it" (Peirce 1977:36) > > The difference lies in Silverstein's dialectical layering - where Peirce's > indices gain ideological baggage through metapragmatic recursion. What > remains Peircean is the core semiotic mechanism: indexical meaning emerges > from connection rather than representation. > Best > Jack > >
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at https://list.iu.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
