Mary, List, I have a little more time now and I think I have just about untangled the confusions caused by multiple, parallel, on-and-off-list exchanges.
I was not trying to set forth any universal conclusions about self-reference -- prior to a complete analysis I would probably guess that some forms of real or apparent self-reference do make sense while others are more problematic. One of the things we have our pragmatism for is to clear up conceptual confusions -- and here I was simply taking a single example of one such confusion to illustrate how setting a communicational problem within the frame of a triadic sign relation and applying the tools of pragmatic analysis (namely, the pragmatic maxim) can be used to clarify the problematic situation, even to the point of a full resolution. I'll write more on the rest as I get time ... and the all-important concentration ... Regards, Jon > Hi Mary, > > I'm 2 or 3 replies behind and moving kinda slow of late, and there are > messages now coming to me, as yours and previously Markku's did, with > the correct List address, I think, but not going to the List, which is > getting me confused. Ben wrote a note about checking to see if people > have multiple send addresses, so maybe that is the problem, I don't know. > Or maybe it has to do with the number of addresses in the cc lists being > truncated. I will try trimming those. > > By way of the briefest reply until I get more time ... > > My topic here is not self-reference but logical consistency. > In themselves those are independent issues, only incidentally > and inessentially entangled in the syntactic confidence games > of the so-called liar paradox. > > Regards, > > Jon > > On 8/5/2015 11:44 AM, Libertin, Mary wrote: >> Hi Jon, >> >> I am hesitant to accept your conclusions about self-reference >> if they are meant to be universally true. I take your comments >> to mean that self-reference is not acceptable, in part, because >> self-reference is not mathematical. Could you respond to the >> theses of Louis H. Kauffman in writings on self-reference and >> recursive forms, and to the thesis of Francisco Varela in >> “A Calculus for Self Reference” in the International Journal >> of General Systems 2, 1975, 5-24. I find them convincing, >> but I am not an expert and look forward to your response. >> >> Varela extends the calculus of indications of G. Spencer Brown >> to encompass all self referential situations in “A Calculus for >> Self Reference” in the International Journal of General Systems, 2, >> 1975, 5-25. Louis H. Kauffman, who teaches mathematics, Statistics >> and Computer Science at University of Illinois at Chicago, asks, in >> an essay “Self Reference and Recursive Forms,” in The Journal of >> Social Biological Structure, 1987, 10, 53-72, “Is self reference >> in language a form of reentry?” His response is yes. An expert on >> knots and physics, he includes references to mathematical recursions, >> fractals, set theory, logic, and quantum mechanics. In “Formal Systems: >> EigenForm” he discusses Foerster’s model for eigenforms and recursions >> and finds that “iterating an object upon itself is seen to be a key to >> understanding the nature of objects and the relationship of an observer >> and the apparent world of the observer.” Kybernetes, 34,1/2 2005. His >> works on “Kauffman2013” at wordpress.com are further discussions of this. >> >> Jorge Soto-Andrade et.al, in “Ouroboros avatars: A mathematics exploration >> of self-reference and metabolic Closure” (Advances in Artificial Life, >> ECAL 2011, proceedings of the eleventh European conference on the syntheses >> and simulation of living systems, Cambridge, MIT Press, 2011) shows how >> self-reference operates in metabolic systems. >> >> My interest in self reference goes way back to Douglas Hofstadter’s >> An Eternal Golden Braid, which analyzes self-reference in Godel, Escher, >> and Bach. In my own work I try to apply self-reference to James Joyce’s >> writings. My framework for understanding Joyce is Peircean, thus my >> involvement with the Peirce-l and biosemiotics. >> >> I am ready to learn of the limitations in my understanding of self-reference. >> For example, I was amazed to realize that G Spencer Brown’s Laws of Form does >> not include self-reference. I had until recently assumed the opposite. >> >> I would love to have Kauffman engage in a discussion with Jon. >> >> Best, >> Mary Libertin -- academia: http://independent.academia.edu/JonAwbrey my word press blog: http://inquiryintoinquiry.com/ inquiry list: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ isw: http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/JLA oeiswiki: http://www.oeis.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/JonnyCache
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