Dear all,

The *surprising* *fact*, (object) C, is observed (by a human);...

Best,
Jerry R

On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> The FACT that the content of the immediate and dynamic object are
> different indeed 'makes us just humans' but I'd say that it makes us
> 'humans'. That is, I'd remove the 'just' from the phrase. That means that
> our cognitive capacity, our capacity to learn, to 'have knowledge' means
> that we, with that capacity for reasoning and analysis, can think about
> that dynamic object; can think about our immediate object - and, the three
> interpretants.
>
> Without such a capacity, we would be unable to do anything other than
> mechanically react. We would have no capacity to change both that dynamic
> object or our interactions with it.
>
> Edwina Taborsky
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> On Sun 26/03/17 10:22 AM , Claudio Guerri [email protected] sent:
>
> List,
> forgive me for jumping in only very shortly
> but...
> I agree that that there can not be "alternative facts"
> but for sure, there are only alternative interpretations.
> And both concepts of immediate and dynamic object are a very clear
> explanation of that difference that makes as just humans...
> All the best
> Claudio
>
> Helmut Raulien escribió el 25/03/2017 a las 20:05:
>
> List,
> In common language the word "truth" is used for two different things: The
> fact and it´s representation (the truth independent of observation, and the
> truth as represented- correct representatrion). In philosophy it mostly is
> only used for the representation, and means a correct representation of a
> fact.
> With one exception: Having looked at Wikipedia: "Truth": I would say, that
> the redundancy theory uses the term for the fact, otherwise "truth" would
> not be redundant (tautology, ok.).
> I would say, that "truth" in the sense of the fact is semantically
> redundant, because a fact is one of the things of which there can only be
> one. I think, there is only one person in the world who claims that there
> may be "alternative facts".
>
> Examples:
>
> "It is the truth, that Alice and Bob have married": "Truth" means the
> fact, and is redundant as a term, because you might as well just say:
> "Alice and Bob have married".
>
> "Paul told the truth when he said that Alice and Bob had married": Fact,
> redundant, because to tell means to speak about. "About" is the bridge
> between representation and fact, adresses the fact. The sentence can be
> said like: "Alice and Bob have married, and Paul has told that".
> Though the redundancy is not complete regarding the connotations: The
> first version of the statement implies the suggestion, that Paul does not
> always adress facts correctly (tell the truth), which the second version
> does not imply.
>
> "Paul spoke the truth when he said that Alice and Bob had married":
> representation, not redundant. The truth here is not the fact, but what
> Paul spoke.
>
> Anyway, I guess it is very dangerous, that there are two completely
> different things which may so easily be conflated and confused, because
> they share the same term. Eg. the said person who claims alternative facts
> is a danger.
>
> I guess, that language in general is somewhat blurry about the distinction
> between representation and the represented. But in the case of the term
> "truth" it is a major problem, leading to confusion and misconceptions,
> even ideologies: Ideologies work with forged "facts", and are only able to
> do so, because the term "truth" is not clear. If there were two words for
> the two things (representation and represented), then it would be much more
> difficult to establish myths and conspiracy theories, which both are
> necessary for ideologies.
>
> I had thought about proposing to call the two types of "truth" dynamical
> and immediate truth, but this is confusing, I guess, because a dynamical
> object may be an immediate truth. Or "trueness" and "truth"? I dont know.
>
> Best,
> helmut
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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