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}Gary R, list:
Peirce doesn't employ the notion of perfection in any concrete
sense. I stand by my view that the basic dynamics of Peircean
semiosis means that no final state can be reached - whether that
final state be 'the perfect' or even 'truth'.
The basic composition of the universe, i.e., the Three Categories
and the Triadic Semiosic Process means that deviation from a 'path'
is basic to life. Indeed, your quotes below confirm my point - that
no final state [and that includes perfection] is possible. Not merely
not possible but it would be non-semiosic - for that triad and those
three categories prevent finality.
Edwina
On Sat 10/03/18 4:56 PM , Gary Richmond [email protected]
sent:
Edwina, list,
Edwina wrote: " I would agree with the concerns expressed about the
notion of 'perfection'. I suggest that the very idea of 'perfection',
'the perfect sign', etc, is the antithesis of Peircean semiosis."
Then why in the world, if they are "the antithesis of Peircean
semiosis" does Peirce employ them? Those quotations are Peirce's, not
being "made up" by Jon. They have, I'd argue, semeiotic specific (not
vernacular) meanings.
ET: The fact that there are three categorical modes, suggests a
system that is innately capable of infinite growth, complexity,
diversity - and Peirce himsels says this, referring to "the
phenomenon of growth and developing complexity, which appears to be
universal" 6.64. That is - there is no Final State of Perfection, for
the reality of growth and complexity prevent such a linear and closed
path.
See my last message addressed to Jon S where I comment on Peirce's
use of 'perfection' (and I'd add, related terms like 'finality')
which are used by him not to deny growth and evolution, but rather to
suggest that there is a tendency exactly towards evolutionary growth,
but that it is asymptotic and will--can--never be reached (for one
thing, the sun will eventually die out and all Earthly activity,
including evolution, will cease--but that is neither her nor there).
In my opinion one needs to be keenly aware of how Peirce is using the
terminology he finds appropriate in his semeiotic inquiries. Take for
example what Peirce means by Final Interpretant.
1909 | Letters to William James | EP 2:496-7
…there is certainly a third kind of Interpretant, which I call the
Final Interpretant, because it is that which would finally be decided
to be the true interpretation if consideration of the matter were
carried so far that an ultimate opinion were reached.Notice the would
in would finally (emphasis is Peirce's). One could argue in a similar
manner concerning his use of 'ultimate' in "ultimate opinion" in the
snippet quoted above. These are general tendencies considered in
futuro. They are normative hopes. Earlier in the same 1909 letter
Peirce writes:
". . .we must understand by final causation that mode of bringing
facts about according to which a general description of result is
made to come about, quite irrespective of any compulsion for it to
come about in this or that particular way" (CSP).
ET: That is, the mode of Firstness provides a constant source of
novelty, spontaneity, chance, freshness - which would provide a
deviation from any stable format. The mode of Thirdness functions
both to constantly reduce diversity, mould commonality and generality
- and this too would again, provide a method of deviation from any
stable format [of perfection]. The mode of Secondness, with its focus
on the particular and the linear, is frankly the only mode that would
be available for a path-to-perfection, but not only does it not exist
alone - Peircean semiosis has three modes - but its very individuality
precludes perfection.
This might be the case were the world to go on forever, grow and
evolve as if stars and planets didn't also grow old and die. (There
is a theological notion which I assume I'm not the only one to hold
it--although I can't recall where I got it--that none of this world's
growth and evolution is lost in the Mind of God, or just Mind if you
prefer; however, this is surely not the thread to get into that
idea.)ET: And the fact that semiosis is triadic, with a mediative
node that transforms the DO to the II/DI - means that this is a
constantly interactive and individual semiosis which is
transformative and complex rather than linear. There can be no
necessitarian perfection or 'final state'
There is no "necessitarianism" in Peirce's notion of the 'perfect
Sign', etc. Take, for example, Peirce's understanding of "Final
Causation":
1902 | Minute Logic: Chapter II. Prelogical Notions. Section I.
Classification of the Sciences (Logic II) | EP 2:120; CP 1.211
Final causation does not determine in what particular way it is to
be brought about, but only that the result shall have a certain
general character. (emphasis added by me)In my view, the 'general
character' of the evolution of the Cosmos through, shall we say,
infinite semiosis, is what Peirce means when he uses such terminology
as that involving 'final' and 'perfect' and 'Truth'.
Best,
Gary R
Gary Richmond Philosophy and Critical ThinkingCommunication
StudiesLaGuardia College of the City University of New York718
482-5690 [1]
On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 3:52 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:
List -
I would agree with the concerns expressed about the notion of
'perfection'. I suggest that the very idea of 'perfection', 'the
perfect sign', etc, is the antithesis of Peircean semiosis.
The fact that there are three categorical modes, suggests a system
that is innately capable of infinite growth, complexity, diversity -
and Peirce himsels says this, referring to "the phenomenon of growth
and developing complexity, which appears to be universal" 6.64. That
is - there is no Final State of Perfection, for the reality of growth
and complexity prevent such a linear and closed path.
That is, the mode of Firstness provides a constant source of
novelty, spontaneity, chance, freshness - which would provide a
deviation from any stable format. The mode of Thirdness functions
both to constantly reduce diversity, mould commonality and generality
- and this too would again, provide a method of deviation from any
stable format [of perfection]. The mode of Secondness, with its focus
on the particular and the linear, is frankly the only mode that would
be available for a path-to-perfection, but not only does it not exist
alone - Peircean semiosis has three modes - but its very individuality
precludes perfection.
And the fact that semiosis is triadic, with a mediative node that
transforms the DO to the II/DI - means that this is a constantly
interactive and individual semiosis which is transformative and
complex rather than linear. There can be no necessitarian perfection
or 'final state'.
Edwina
On Sat 10/03/18 2:59 PM , Gary Richmond [email protected] [3]
sent:
Stephen, Jon S, list,
Stephen wrote:
SR: I think this is a needless and unproductive complexification of
matters Peirce himself did not see as important.
I completely disagree that Jon's inquiry "is a needless and
unproductive complexification of matters Peirce himself did not see
as important." In fact, Jon is raising the curtain on an aspect of
Peirce's late semeiotic which several members of this forum find of
considerable interest, while it is certainly deepening my
understanding of these topics. I see no reason whatsoever to support
your comment that "Peirce himself did not see" this as an important
inquiry and quite the contrary.
SR: The term perfect sign does not appear in CP. The term perfect is
used in all manner of contexts but less than 100 times. There are over
1000 references to signs but none is preceded by the word perfect.
Two points. First, the CP is but a sampling of Peirce's work, so your
stats hold little, if any, weight. Were one able to sample the
frequency of certain terms and expressions in all the published work
(including, for example, NEM and the PEP's chronological edition, but
others as well; and never forgetting that much of Peirce's work has
not yet been published) one might come up with a very different
frequency rate.
Second, the frequency of a term or expression says almost nothing
about it's importance, especially when one considers that Peirce
introduced a great deal of new terminology into his late semeiotic
researches, only a fraction of which has, to my knowledge, been
published. Take any number of terms and expressions from that late
work and you will find few instances of these terms, some of which
are considered of great importance to a number of established
semioticians. Now had Peirce lived another ten years, say. . .
SR: I think it inhibits philosophy itself to regard a term not
fundamental to an author's understanding as somehow worth extended
treatment as something that will somehow advance u thinking.
What I think "inhibits philosophy" is the tendency to "block the
road of inquiry" because one doesn't find it of personal interest or
personal value. You have no idea, in my opinion, whether or not this
late move by Peirce is "fundamental" to his understanding, and even
less how further research into it will or will not "somehow advance"
our understanding of the topics under consideration.
SR: Perhaps we should rate subjects by their prominence in Peirce's
own lexicon
First, again your estimate of the "prominence" of "subjects" in
"Peirce's own lexicon" seems based on a string search of the CP,
hardly likely to give an accurate account of what was important for
Peirce and which may warrant further inquiry by those, like JAS, who
seem likely to contribute to it.
Besides, as mentioned above, there being much more published Peirce
beyond the CP (which edition has significant limitations), as John
Sowa recently noted a vast amount of manuscript material hasn't yet
been published, and this is particularly so, I believe, as regards
his late work, especially his late work in semeiotics, his letters,
marginalia, contributions to dictionaries, etc.
Upon this first, and in one sense this sole, rule of reason, that in
order to learn you must desire to learn, and in so desiring not be
satisfied with what you already incline to think, there follows one
corollary which itself deserves to be inscribed upon every wall of
the city of philosophy:
Do not block the way of inquiry.
Best,
Gary R
Gary RichmondPhilosophy and Critical ThinkingCommunication
StudiesLaGuardia College of the City University of New York 718
482-5690 [4]
On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Stephen C. Rose wrote:
I think this is a needless and unproductive complexification of
matters Peirce himself did not see as important. The term perfect
sign does not appear in CP. The term perfect is used in all manner of
contexts but less than 100 times. There are over 1000 references to
signs but none is preceded by the word perfect. I think it inhibits
philosophy itself to regard a term not fundamental to an author's
understanding as somehow worth extended treatment as something that
will somehow advance u thinking. Perhaps we should rate subjects by
their prominence in Peirce's own lexicon.
amazon.com/author/stephenrose [5]
On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Jon Alan Schmidt wrote:
List:
Having gotten a better handle on Peirce's concept of a Quasi-mind,
we can now make another attempt at sorting out what he meant by
"perfect sign" in EP 2:545n25. Here is a summary of what that text
tells us about it.
*It is the aggregate formed by a Sign and all the Signs that
its occurrence carries with it, and involves the present existence of
no other Sign except those that are its ingredients.
*It is not in a statical condition, because it is an
existent that acts; and whatever acts, changes.
*Its every real ingredient is aging, its energy of action
upon the Interpretant is running low, its sharp edges are wearing
down, and its outlines are becoming more indefinite.
*It is perpetually being acted upon by its Object, receiving
from it the accretions of new Signs that bring it fresh energy
and kindle the energy that it already had, but which had lain
dormant.
*It constantly undergoes spontaneous changes that do not
happen by its will, but are phenomena of growth.
*It is a Quasi-mind and the Sheet of Assertion of
Existential Graphs.
The Perfect Sign involves the present existence (2ns) of only those
Signs that comprise it, which are aging and wearing down; yet it
continues receiving accretions of new Signs (3ns) from its Object and
undergoing spontaneous changes (1ns). After further contemplation, I
now believe that Peirce was describing the same thing here as in the
passage about "the ideal sign" that I have mentioned previously,
which he wrote a couple of years earlier.
CSP: What we call a "fact" is something having the structure of a
proposition, but supposed to be an element of the very universe
itself. The purpose of every sign is to express "fact," and by being
joined with other signs, to approach as nearly as possible to
determining an interpretant which would be the perfect Truth, the
absolute Truth, and as such (at least, we may use this language)
would be the very Universe. Aristotle gropes for a conception of
perfection, or entelechy, which he never succeeds in making clear. We
may adopt the word to mean the very fact, that is, the ideal sign
which should be quite perfect, and so identical,--in such identity as
a sign may have,--with the very matter denoted united with the very
form signified by it. The entelechy of the Universe of being, then,
the Universe qua fact, will be that Universe in its aspect as a sign,
the "Truth" of being. The "Truth," the fact that is not abstracted but
complete, is the ultimate interpretant of every sign. (EP 2:304; 1904)
Contrary to my previous hypothesis, "Perfect Sign" is not synonymous
with "Quasi-mind"; instead, it designates the Truth that corresponds
to the Universe. As such, it also satisfies the last bullet above,
since the Sheet of Assertion or Phemic Sheet is not only a
Quasi-mind, but also "a Seme of The Truth, that is, of the widest
Universe of Reality" (CP 4.553; 1906). Of course, this does not at
all entail that a Quasi-mind and the Universe are the same thing.
CSP: … one and the same construction may be, when regarded in two
different ways, two altogether different diagrams; and that to which
it testifies in the one capacity, it must not be considered as
testifying to in the other capacity. For example, the Entire
Existential Graph of a Phemic Sheet, in any state of it, is a Diagram
of the logical Universe, as it is also a Diagram of a Quasi-mind; but
it must not, on that account, be considered as testifying to the
identity of those two. It is like a telescope eye piece which at one
focus exhibits a star at which the instrument is pointed, and at
another exhibits all the faults of the objective lens. (NEM 4:324;
1906)
Any comments? I am guessing that these topics must simply not be of
much interest, or people are just very busy these days, since I find
it hard to believe that everyone agrees with everything I have been
posting. :-)
Regards,
Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAProfessional Engineer, Amateur
Philosopher, Lutheran Layman www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [6] -
twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [7]
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