We live in time-space and we also accept logos. To do both allows for
confidence that ultimately matters are out of our hands. At the same time
we have a purpose here. I see that as inevitably social and so it makes a
difference whether for example the elections go one way or another. Either
way it makes no difference  in the ultimate scheme of things, but it
registers precisely on the individual scales on which we live. As Peirce
understood we live by the fruits of our doing and saying. To embrace both
and look ahead seems to me the best stance.

amazon.com/author/stephenrose

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 12:09 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:

> Stephen, List,
>
> but if validating means to have to wait for time to vindicate it all, I am
> too impatient for that. So I look for validation in (supposed and believed
> by me) "pure reason", which I suppose is independent of "the climate of our
> world". I am not alone or the first one with this, and would not have
> gotten the idea by myself. I would not try to refute Kant, Peirce, and
> others. Neither John, who said that in the beginning was the word, meaning
> logos is primordial, universal. In this respect I am a conservative (so not
> liberal? I mean, "liberal" does not mean to have to put everything into
> question, out of routine: Routine is habit, and unfreflectedly following
> habits is conservative- There we have it, the complications and
> complexities).
>
> Best,
> Helmut
>
>  11. August 2018 um 17:40 Uhr
>
> "Stephen Curtiss Rose" <stever...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Here's the deal. I am a professional communicator with a broad knowledge
> of how this all works. The way Peirce is now done you are talking of
> something that exists in a thimble somewhere. We may like the term triadic
> or the notion of semiotics. They gain some traction but NO. EGs will not
> have a chance in a million of doing what ontology does for free. It
> validates those values! If it can validate EGs more power to them. If we
> are not also communicators along with whatever else we say we do, we are
> whistling in the wind with Peirce notions. They will continue to languish
> in places few will ever be aware of. The Cosmos is an invitation to narrow
> our messaging. I see our role as fathoming what we can say about ourselves
> and reality as a whole. EG's -- even the word ontology -- is specialized in
> the climate of our world. Best we fight for things that have a chance of
> gaining a hearing and a seeing. We are fighting obsolescence that is
> formidable -- much of it in the realm of thought.
>
> amazon.com/author/stephenrose
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
>>
>> Stephen C. R., List,
>>
>> I agree with the action values. But aren´t EGs *the* proper tool for
>> ontology? Because Ontology is about being, existence, what "is", but the
>> term "is" is ambiguous, or polyguous, other than the "cut" of the EGs,
>> which is well defined, and not culture- or taste-relative? I am not very
>> much into EGs, especially not the beta- gamma- and so on graphs. Somebody
>> else please say something.
>>
>> Best,
>> Helmut
>>
>> 11. August 2018 um 13:30 Uhr
>> "Stephen Curtiss Rose" <stever...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> EGs are an acquired taste like frogs legs and kale. Words that survive
>> have many permutations. I would never use myth to mean something not real
>> or a lie. But there we have it. We are in a very binary phase. But when we
>> come out of it we need to suggest that some things are ontological -- true
>> regardless -- and liberal is not quite there but it is close because it is
>> tolerant, democratic and helpful and these are three ontological action
>> values that time will vindicate.
>>
>> amazon.com/author/stephenrose
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 6:53 AM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Stephen, Stephen, List,
>>>
>>> I think it would be better, if in politics Peirce´s existential graphs
>>> would be applied. Then it would e.g. be clear, that if "liberal" is inside
>>> the cut, "fascist" , and "hammer and sickle" would be outside of it. Also
>>> quasi-fascists calling themselves liberals, and people claiming the
>>> existence of liberal fascists, would not work with EGs.
>>> Also the sayings "The path should resemble the goal", and "the way to
>>> hell is paved with good intentions" could be easily sketched with EGs, I
>>> guess.
>>> The kinds of weird double-negations that are used in politics instead of
>>> the Peircean cut should be analysed with Peirce, I think. Ok, who will do
>>> it?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Helmut
>>>
>>>  10. August 2018 um 19:51 Uhr
>>>  "Stephen Curtiss Rose" <stever...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> I watched the move of folk like Dick Neuhaus and Mike Novak to the right
>>> and felt it was as much economic motivation as anything else. Both
>>> prospered. Meanwhile, Christianity and Crisis which was my roost at the
>>> time went under. The liberal move to the right has had no discernable
>>> effect on the Right's sorry performance including its present sad
>>> captivity, My brand of liberalism which is not neo-liberalism but rather a
>>> liberalism based on fairness and non-violence will eventually triumph as
>>> the strong tree from which future politics can grow -- in a world of
>>> democracies once today's miasm blows away. Think long-term. I suspect
>>> Peirce did.
>>>
>>> amazon.com/author/stephenrose
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Stephen Jarosek <sjaro...@iinet.net.au>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The liberals of your experience remind me of the liberals that I used
>>>> to identify with before I turned to the right. But times have changed, and
>>>> the liberals of today are not what they used to be. This video clip reminds
>>>> me of the reasons that I originally changed sides (I was ahead of my time
>>>> J):
>>>> https://youtu.be/4Pjs7uoOkag
>>>>
>>>> So don’t apologize… get those who now routinely betray what you believe
>>>> in to apologize to you… or walk away.
>>>>
>>>> sj
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Stephen Curtiss Rose [mailto:stever...@gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2018 6:37 PM
>>>> *To:* Stephen Jarosek; Peirce List
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Culture wires the brain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow! The blanket lumping of liberals with the selected vignetter you
>>>> give of fascist liberalism sounds a bit like Jordan Peterson skewering
>>>> post-modernist French intellectuals. Most liberals in my experience are
>>>> nonviolent, oppose war, and do not use clearly provocative lingo even if
>>>> they are rabidly opposed to their opponents. They can embrace a
>>>> democratic-socialist all the way to a necessarily blue dog type. I am not
>>>> sure where the animus behind your words comes from but I am tempted to
>>>> apologize. Cheers, S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> amazon.com/author/stephenrose
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Stephen Jarosek <
>>>> sjaro...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> HELMUT >” The "Left" do not utter "nonsense" by saying that there are
>>>> more than two genders, but they (the "Left") are merely liberal, by not
>>>> wanting to forbid anybody defining their own special gender, like "lesbian,
>>>> gay, trans, both, none, or between man and woman...", if they feel one of
>>>> those suits better to them than either "male" or "female". A culture that
>>>> presses on everybody one of two labels is rigid.”
>>>>
>>>> The only duty we have is to respect one another. Most of us do not have
>>>> a problem with people living out their personal preferences, so long as
>>>> they respect others’ personal space. But people trying to foist
>>>> “alternative” definitions into a culture and demand that they be observed
>>>> are not liberal at all… they have an agenda and their demands are
>>>> propaganda.
>>>>
>>>> HELMUT>”A rigid culture is more likely of starting a war than a
>>>> liberal culture.”
>>>>
>>>> Many of us observing proceedings taking place in America would
>>>> disagree. It is the Left in America that is agitating for war. They want to
>>>> deny the Right their freedom of speech. They call anyone that they disagree
>>>> with nazis. They want to deny a president that was democratically elected.
>>>> Their fascism masquerading as antifascism is laughably transparent, and the
>>>> violence of their Antifa reveals the mindboggling extent of their
>>>> hypocrisy. History is repeating, and it is the Left that is at the center
>>>> of it, fascism red in hammer and sickle.
>>>>
>>>> sj
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Helmut Raulien [mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de <h.raul...@gmx.de>]
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 8, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>> *To:* tabor...@primus.ca
>>>> *Cc:* Stephen Jarosek; Daniel L Everett; Peirce-L
>>>> *Subject:* Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Culture wires the brain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Edwina, Daniel, Stephen, List,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Edwina. I think there are social and altruistic instincts,
>>>> but they may be destroyed by a rigid culture, and replaced with other
>>>> instincts, which are "if-then"- routines, such as egocentric, tribal, and
>>>> warrior instincts.
>>>>
>>>> I think, that the nature of humans is usually good, in a liberal and
>>>> equality-supporting culture. But there are also sleeping bad
>>>> predispositions, which may be awakened in a bad environment, for the
>>>> purpose of surviving there too. But of course, a human always has choices.
>>>>
>>>> The "Left" do not utter "nonsense" by saying that there are more than
>>>> two genders, but they (the "Left") are merely liberal, by not wanting to
>>>> forbid anybody defining their own special gender, like "lesbian, gay,
>>>> trans, both, none, or between man and woman...", if they feel one of those
>>>> suits better to them than either "male" or "female". A culture that presses
>>>> on everybody one of two labels is rigid.
>>>>
>>>> A rigid culture is more likely of starting a war than a liberal
>>>> culture. In a war situation, bad instincts are awakened, up to making
>>>> psychopaths out of people. A psychiatrist visiting a continuous war zone in
>>>> Congo has said, the psychopaths ratio in the population was 70%. The other
>>>> 30% remain, because people still have brains and choices.
>>>>
>>>> All this may have to do with "brain wiring", ok, but not with cultural
>>>> relativity, as "rigid", "liberal", "equality-supporting", and so on are
>>>> universal terms.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Helmut
>>>>
>>>> 08. August 2018 um 14:41 Uhr
>>>>  "Edwina Taborsky" <tabor...@primus.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting - but - if you see our species [homo sapiens] as a kind of
>>>> 'black slate' so to speak - then, how do you explain the fact that the
>>>> infant has to be socialized; i.e., our species is not born with innate
>>>> knowledge and requires a long nurturance period.  And our type
>>>> of socialization requires language. So- how do you get away from the notion
>>>> that the requirement for language is innate?
>>>>
>>>> Edwina
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *On Wed 08/08/18 5:14 AM , Daniel L Everett danleveret...@gmail.com
>>>> <danleveret...@gmail.com> sent:*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/D/bo16611802.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/004132
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here are two recent works of mind on culture and cognition. I will be
>>>> exploring these further in a specifically Peircean context in a book coming
>>>> out next year from OUP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dan Everett
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 8, 2018, at 06:12, Stephen Jarosek <sjaro...@iinet.net.au>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> List, here's an interesting article that resonates with ideas that I've
>>>> touched on in this forum (culture, neural plasticity, scaffolding,
>>>> bucket-of-bugs... no such thing as instinct, no such thing as a
>>>> "blueprint"
>>>> that wires the brain). I'm not sure whether the author would take it as
>>>> far
>>>> as I do, but definitely of direct semiotic/biosemiotic relevance:
>>>> https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/08/06/what-if-people-
>>>> from-different-cultu
>>>> res-and-economic-backgrounds-have-different-brain-wiring/
>>>>
>>>> Barrett's paper also got me thinking about a point that I've been
>>>> mulling
>>>> over recently... the importance of initial conditions (scaffolding in
>>>> the
>>>> context of chaos theory)... the idea that experiences can never occur in
>>>> isolation (objectivity), but must build on prior experiences
>>>> (subjectivity):
>>>>
>>>>    "This leads to another significant implication-that childrearing and
>>>> early childhood experiences are more important than we thought. Not
>>>> only do
>>>> early experiences shape our personality and values, they also create the
>>>> wiring that will govern our perception of the world far into adulthood."
>>>>
>>>> Initial conditions are particularly important in the cultural relativism
>>>> debate, for example, where the Left entertains nonsense about more than
>>>> two
>>>> genders. Initial conditions based on childhood AND the body that you
>>>> inhabit
>>>> lock you into a fairly narrow trajectory, with the implication that you
>>>> cannot just wake up one morning to decide that you're a special
>>>> snowflake in
>>>> the wrong body, and that you need to change genders.
>>>>
>>>> sj
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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