Gary R., List: I was simply responding to Helmut's statement that he did not understand my previous post, which (among other things) sought to correct his misinterpretation of Matthew 25:40.
Regards, Jon On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 5:16 PM Gary Richmond <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, > > JAS: Nobody is 100% good *except *Jesus Christ, who is both God and > human. That is why his death alone satisfies the debt that we all owe to > God for our own sins. > > I thought that you were *not* going to express your personal religious > views here. We panentheists, and Sufis, First Nations Peoples, Kabbalists, > Zennists, Taoists, etc., etc., etc. do not see it your way. The above is > your belief, and has nothing to do with even Peirce's religious -- and > definitely not his metaphysical -- views. > > Panentheists -- of whatever stripe -- see all men and women as their > brothers and sisters; they see all of us as children of God (or Mind, or > however one cares to characterize it). But you see only those who believe > what you believe as being 'saved' and all the other trappings of a > dogmatic, doctrinaire, credal Christianity. > > That your philosophical work seems to me to be directed to always > supporting your religious viewpoint appears more and more to me to be, > frankly, unscientific -- and in the extreme. Peirce on several occasions > asked that others try to *disprove* his theories. You seem to be > suggesting that researchers on Peirce-L should attempt to accept your > theories apropos of God and religion because, what?, that Peirce also was a > theist? > > So let's please attempt in the future to separate these matters > of personal belief and religious metaphysics. Although I regret having to > bring it up again, you have said that you cannot consider me your Christian > brother because I don't adhere to what you see as the fundamental tenets of > Christianity as expressed in, for example, the Nicene Creed and as you > expressed it in the quotation at the top of this message. > > No doubt there are some Christians here who accept the tenets of the > Nicene Creed. > > We believe in one God, > the Father, the Almighty, > maker of heaven and earth, > of all that is seen and unseen. > > > We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, > the only Son of God, > eternally begotten of the Father, > God from God, Light from Light, > true God from true God, > begotten, not made, > consubstantial to the father. > Through him all things were made. > For us and for our salvation > he came down from heaven: > by the power of the Holy Spirit > he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, > and was made man. > For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; > he suffered death and was buried. > On the third day he rose again > in accordance with the Scriptures; > he ascended into heaven > and is seated at the right hand of the Father. > He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, > and his kingdom will have no end. > > > > We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, > who proceeds from the Father and the Son. > With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. > He has spoken through the Prophets. > We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. > We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. > We look for the resurrection of the dead, > and the life of the world to come. Amen. > > But many of us, even some of us who yet tenuously hold to *Cosmic* > Christianity, do not. I think it is best that we all try harder here to > have more metaphysical and less theological discussion (admittedly, I have > got to do better in heeding my own advice). > > Best, > > Gary R > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 5:38 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Helmut, List: >> >> A mother is necessary *for her child*, but she is still a contingent >> being *overall*--it is obviously possible for her *not *to be. In fact, >> a pregnant woman is sometimes used as a metaphor for panentheism. By >> contrast, as Peirce states, *Ens necessarium* is uniquely "that which >> would Really be in any possible state of things whatever." >> >> Dynamical objects change because they are affected by *their own* >> dynamical objects, which determine them as signs. Dynamical objects are *not >> *affected by the signs that they determine. >> >> Nobody is 100% good *except *Jesus Christ, who is both God and human. >> That is why his death alone satisfies the debt that we all owe to God for >> our own sins. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jon >> >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 1:41 PM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Jon, List, >>> >>> I´m afraid, I haven´t understood anything. A mother is necessary for her >>> child, but affected by him/her. Dynamical objects change. Nobody is 100% >>> good. >>> >>> Best regards, Helmut >>> *Von:* "Jon Alan Schmidt" <[email protected]> >>> Helmut, List: >>> >>> Again, panentheism *cannot *coherently conceive God as *Ens necessarium* >>> without >>> qualification, because panentheism maintains that God is affected by the >>> world and thus a *contingent *being in at least some respects, not a >>> thoroughly *necessary *being. >>> >>> Peirce explicitly states that the dynamical object *of a particular >>> sign* is unaffected *by that sign*. "For the sign does not affect the >>> object but is affected by it" (CP 1.538, 1903). "In its relation to the >>> Object, the Sign is *passive*; that is to say, its correspondence to >>> the Object is brought about by an effect upon the Sign, the Object >>> remaining unaffected" (EP 2:544n22, 1906). On the other hand, I agree that >>> dynamical objects *within the universe* are also signs that are >>> affected by *their *dynamical objects, with the understanding that all >>> such *individual *signs/objects/interpretants are artifacts of analysis >>> prescinded from the real and *continuous *process of semiosis. >>> >>> Christian theology *does not* maintain that going to heaven or hell is >>> a matter of being greater or less than 50% good. On the contrary, anyone >>> who is less than 100% good deserves hell, which is most accurately defined >>> as an everlasting state of existence apart from God. However, as I already >>> summarized the other day, God himself provided the remedy by becoming human >>> (John 1:14) and then dying on the cross to satisfy the debt that we all owe >>> to God for our own sins (Colossians 2:13-14); and the Holy Spirit applies >>> it to us by graciously giving us the gift of faith in his promises--not >>> just *belief*, but also *trust *in what he has done for us, rather than >>> anything that we can do ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA >>> Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian >>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 9:40 AM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Jon, List, >>>> >>>> Thank you for the detailed outline! I so far understand, that classical >>>> theism says, that God is only ens necessarium, and therefore unaffected, >>>> while panentheism and nonclassical theism say, that God is not only creator >>>> (ens necessarium), but has aspects too, that are affected. The Peircean >>>> idea, that God is dynamical object of the universe, doesn´t say in my >>>> opinion, that He is unaffected, because DOs can be affected in a semiosis, >>>> I think. How else could things change? I remember (have looked it up) >>>> Matthew 25.40: "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of >>>> these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." (Jesus), though this >>>> is a quite hellish chapter, I don´t like due to this binary judgement with >>>> only two options to go, heaven or hell. A person who is 49 % good and 51% >>>> bad goes to hell, and a person who is not very different, just 51% good, >>>> goes to heaven. That is not fair. >>>> >>>> Best regards, Helmut >>>> >>>
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