Jon,
JAS: Nobody is 100% good *except *Jesus Christ, who is both God and human.
That is why his death alone satisfies the debt that we all owe to God for
our own sins.
I thought that you were *not* going to express your personal religious
views here. We panentheists, and Sufis, First Nations Peoples, Kabbalists,
Zennists, Taoists, etc., etc., etc. do not see it your way. The above is
your belief, and has nothing to do with even Peirce's religious -- and
definitely not his metaphysical -- views.
Panentheists -- of whatever stripe -- see all men and women as their
brothers and sisters; they see all of us as children of God (or Mind, or
however one cares to characterize it). But you see only those who believe
what you believe as being 'saved' and all the other trappings of a
dogmatic, doctrinaire, credal Christianity.
That your philosophical work seems to me to be directed to always
supporting your religious viewpoint appears more and more to me to be,
frankly, unscientific -- and in the extreme. Peirce on several occasions
asked that others try to *disprove* his theories. You seem to be suggesting
that researchers on Peirce-L should attempt to accept your theories apropos
of God and religion because, what?, that Peirce also was a theist?
So let's please attempt in the future to separate these matters of personal
belief and religious metaphysics. Although I regret having to bring it up
again, you have said that you cannot consider me your Christian brother
because I don't adhere to what you see as the fundamental tenets of
Christianity as expressed in, for example, the Nicene Creed and as you
expressed it in the quotation at the top of this message.
No doubt there are some Christians here who accept the tenets of the Nicene
Creed.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial to the father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
But many of us, even some of us who yet tenuously hold to *Cosmic*
Christianity, do not. I think it is best that we all try harder here to
have more metaphysical and less theological discussion (admittedly, I have
got to do better in heeding my own advice).
Best,
Gary R
On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 5:38 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Helmut, List:
>
> A mother is necessary *for her child*, but she is still a contingent
> being *overall*--it is obviously possible for her *not *to be. In fact, a
> pregnant woman is sometimes used as a metaphor for panentheism. By
> contrast, as Peirce states, *Ens necessarium* is uniquely "that which
> would Really be in any possible state of things whatever."
>
> Dynamical objects change because they are affected by *their own*
> dynamical objects, which determine them as signs. Dynamical objects are *not
> *affected by the signs that they determine.
>
> Nobody is 100% good *except *Jesus Christ, who is both God and human.
> That is why his death alone satisfies the debt that we all owe to God for
> our own sins.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 1:41 PM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Jon, List,
>>
>> I´m afraid, I haven´t understood anything. A mother is necessary for her
>> child, but affected by him/her. Dynamical objects change. Nobody is 100%
>> good.
>>
>> Best regards, Helmut
>> *Von:* "Jon Alan Schmidt" <[email protected]>
>> Helmut, List:
>>
>> Again, panentheism *cannot *coherently conceive God as *Ens necessarium*
>> without
>> qualification, because panentheism maintains that God is affected by the
>> world and thus a *contingent *being in at least some respects, not a
>> thoroughly *necessary *being.
>>
>> Peirce explicitly states that the dynamical object *of a particular sign*
>> is unaffected *by that sign*. "For the sign does not affect the object
>> but is affected by it" (CP 1.538, 1903). "In its relation to the Object,
>> the Sign is *passive*; that is to say, its correspondence to the Object
>> is brought about by an effect upon the Sign, the Object remaining
>> unaffected" (EP 2:544n22, 1906). On the other hand, I agree that dynamical
>> objects *within the universe* are also signs that are affected by *their
>> *dynamical objects, with the understanding that all such *individual
>> *signs/objects/interpretants
>> are artifacts of analysis prescinded from the real and *continuous *process
>> of semiosis.
>>
>> Christian theology *does not* maintain that going to heaven or hell is a
>> matter of being greater or less than 50% good. On the contrary, anyone who
>> is less than 100% good deserves hell, which is most accurately defined as
>> an everlasting state of existence apart from God. However, as I already
>> summarized the other day, God himself provided the remedy by becoming human
>> (John 1:14) and then dying on the cross to satisfy the debt that we all owe
>> to God for our own sins (Colossians 2:13-14); and the Holy Spirit applies
>> it to us by graciously giving us the gift of faith in his promises--not
>> just *belief*, but also *trust *in what he has done for us, rather than
>> anything that we can do ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>> Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 9:40 AM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Jon, List,
>>>
>>> Thank you for the detailed outline! I so far understand, that classical
>>> theism says, that God is only ens necessarium, and therefore unaffected,
>>> while panentheism and nonclassical theism say, that God is not only creator
>>> (ens necessarium), but has aspects too, that are affected. The Peircean
>>> idea, that God is dynamical object of the universe, doesn´t say in my
>>> opinion, that He is unaffected, because DOs can be affected in a semiosis,
>>> I think. How else could things change? I remember (have looked it up)
>>> Matthew 25.40: "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of
>>> these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." (Jesus), though this
>>> is a quite hellish chapter, I don´t like due to this binary judgement with
>>> only two options to go, heaven or hell. A person who is 49 % good and 51%
>>> bad goes to hell, and a person who is not very different, just 51% good,
>>> goes to heaven. That is not fair.
>>>
>>> Best regards, Helmut
>>>
>> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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