Correction: I replaced "x=f(y) with "y=f(x) between the 2nd and the 3d third of my post.
Jon, List,
The former discussion, I want to leave to theologists, and have therefore renamed the thread with "A logical problem", is rather about logic and mathematic, than about God:
-- Position 1 (false): Because God doesn´t have a body, so you cannot talk about containment at all. So you can say neither, that the universe is contained within God, nor that it is not contained within God. So both is true, it is not contained and not not contained.
This position breaks the law of the excluded middle, so it must be false.
-- Position 2, panentheism: The only option left, to save the excluded middle, is to widen the concept of "containment" from spatial to functional composition. This would mean for panentheism, that the universe´s function is contained within God´s function, but God´s function is not contained in the universe´s function, that would be pantheism.
-- Position 3, theism: The universe´s function is not contained in God´s function, although God is omnipresent. Omnipresence is, that there is no place and no particle in the universe, that is not always in a functional connection with God. But: Function is not a symmetrical relation. "y=f(x)" means, that for every point on the x-axis there is not more than one point on the y-axis. But for a point on the y-axis, there may be more than one point on the x-axis. So, if x and y are points in the universe, and form the said function, for God, this x can apply to more than one point on y in His world, thus this function in the universe isn´t a function for Him. So this function in the universe is not a part of God´s function.
Besides not being a theologist, I neither am a mathematician, but I guess, that this nonsymmetry of "function" is the basis for the difference between theism and panentheism. Jon, is there the discipline "mathematical theology"? If not, I think, there should be!
Best regards, Helmut
Jon, List,
God is omnipresent, but not immanent, is pure mind, like the universe is, as matter is mind too, although effete, the universe is not contained within God, though my argument said, that it is not not-contained, because God doesn´t have a limited body... I don´t understand these differences now, I guess I better leave the topic to studied theolgists. Because these differences are so tricky, I think, that a lay person like me cannot be blamed for agreeing with panentheism.
Best regards, Helmut
Helmut, List:
The question is not whether creation is immanent in God, but whether God is immanent in creation. For Peirce and other theists, God is not immanent in the universe, which simply means that the universe is neither identical to God (pantheism) nor somehow contained within God (panentheism). Nevertheless, God is omnipresent in the universe, both spatially (everywhere) and temporally (always), although God is not at any one place nor at any one instant because God does not have a physical body, limited or otherwise--as Peirce says, God is a "disembodied spirit, or pure mind" (CP 6.490, 1908). God's omnipotence is his ability to do anything that is logically possible in accordance with his eternal divine nature.
Again, unlike theism, the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ is a uniquely Christian teaching, along with the Trinity. The traditional understanding is that the immaterial and eternal Son (second Person) assumed a human nature and voluntarily refrained from exercising many of the prerogatives of his divine nature during his life on earth. He was still almighty/omnipotent according to his divine nature, but he suffered and died according to his human nature. When he ascended into heaven forty days after his resurrection, he communicated some of his divine attributes to his human nature, such that he remains both divine and human forever. In the words of the Apostle Paul ...
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)
Regards,
Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 11:35 AM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote:
Jon, List,I was asking, how can God´s creation (I said property too) be called "non-immanent", if God doesn´t have a limited body, and also pervades His creation / property. The same question works, instead of with "non-immanent", also with "distinct from God´s necessary being", or "not an organically connected part of God".I see, that having not a limited body, and pervading everything, is not only a capability, but a non-capability as well, as this way God is not able to step away, and leave His creation alone, not even for a moment. That contradicts almightiness, the same way, like the paradoxon, that God cannot create a stone so heavy, that he cannot lift it. I guess, this paradoxon has been solved by the introduction of Jesus, who is God too, but isn´t almighty, even died on a cross.So i guess, that sin and sinners, actions and actors, that "have fallen from God", are not non-immanent or apart from God, but rather like a sickness of God´s. But He has a good immune system: The good.Best regards, Helmut
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