Louis Proyect wrote:

I have stated that capitalism can involve market forces,
as Brenner and Wood focus on, and it can also involve extra-economic
forces such as the corvee in much of French colonial Africa, King
Leopold's semi-slavery in the Congo, apartheid South Africa with its
pass laws, Nazi Germany, etc. As a rule of thumb, when there is an
ample supply of labor, it is more efficient to allow market forces to
exert the whip. When there is an inadequate supply, you need the actual whip.

Who claims that concrete, historical capitalist societies involve only
market forces?  I don't know this Brenner fellow, but claiming that
capitalism is market forces only is like saying that the moon is made
up of cheese.  If that were Brenner's position, then spending a second
refuting it would be a waste of time.  Without having read this guy,
but knowing your Internet persona,  I find it very unlikely that such
a silly view is the Brenner thesis.

How do I know?  I don't know, but a clue is that you have previously
assimilated my views to those of Brenner.  On that basis, even without
having read Brenner's work, I think that you are confused.  And your
confusion arises from not understanding the distinction between a
general mode of production and the concrete society in which a mode of
production dominates.  So the matter is not, mainly, one of historical
knowledge, but of method.

Marx was simply describing the pure form that existed in Great
Britain.

Again, you are confused.  In the mid 19th century, England was an
extremely fluid, complex capitalist society -- at least as fluid and
complex as any other society of the time.  It provided Marx's
theorizing with an empirical referent, not because it typified in any
way the origins of capitalist production.   Marx never wrote that
England was the "classic ground" of the *gestation and birth* of
capitalist production.  Or show us where.  Rather, it was the best
available empirical referent of *industrially mature* capitalist
production.

Marx knew of -- and duly documented -- the origins of capitalist
production in a number of places, including the city ports of the
Mediterranean and northern continental Europe.  (And *capitalist
production* is not to be confused with *capital* in its "antediluvian
forms" whose origins are traced to the ancient world.)  That's all in
Capital.  However, when trying to pin down, not the historical
genesis, but the "logic" of developed capitalist societies -- starting
with the logic of capital (although not intending to stop there, as
Michael Lebowitz has shown to my satisfaction) -- the English case
provided the best available empirical referent.

*At the time*, mid-19th-century England happened to be the place where
*the inherent tendencies of capitalist production* (which emerged and
evolved historically in more than one place taking all sorts of
convoluted historical routes) were more apparent, because capitalist
production there was most advanced.  But not for a moment Marx thought
the concrete early history of capitalist production in England was
some kind of prototype the development of capitalism in other places
had to follow.  Again, prove the contrary.

Since that's a non-issue, I insist that the base problem here is that
you mistake the abstract for the concrete.  Since the abstract is
always less rich than the complex, then you discard the abstract as
inadequate.  But that's because you don't seem to grasp the role
adequate abstractions play in figuring things out.

I simply don't think that he gave much thought to how
capitalism functioned in Latin America or would begin to function in
Africa after he was dead. As I pointed out, what he wrote about Asia
was wrong.

Of course Marx missed things.  Partly his inborn personal limitations.
We all know he wasn't a very talented guy.  And partly the
limitations imposed on him by time and circumstance -- he didn't have
LexisNexis or Google at his fingertips.

That said, a more fruitful effort would aim to disentangle the extent
to which "what he wrote about Asia" was "wrong" (assuming it was) due
to (a) his understandably limited knowledge of Asian societies and
what due to (b) the approach with which he dissected the little he
knew of those societies.  I understand everything is related, but it's
a non sequitur to say that being "wrong" because of (a) implies being
"wrong" because of (b).

I see capitalism as a global system that was initially fed
by three tributaries. One, the internal changes in the European
countryside that are associated with the Brenner thesis. Two, the
expansion of manufacturing and a growing division of labor in the old
guild systems of the Middle Ages. Three, the rape of Africa and Latin
America which provided the silver and gold and other key resources
(timber, fur, tobacco, sugar, etc.) that fueled economic growth in
the mother countries. It was a perfect storm.

If by the time I write this note, you still believe this is a fair
description of your views, then maybe you'll be in a position to note
that your real beef is with the historical characterization of *the
origin* of capitalist production.  That dispute is and should be, by
nature, inconclusive.

Why?  Because it's in the nature of historical analysis to uncover new
facts and continuously re-evaluate the past through the lens of
current history.  The kind of argument that can tilt the balance in
favor of one or another theory is necessarily casuistic and -- ideally
-- should be founded on facts.

Now, Louis, I don't mean to question your credentials as a historian,
but -- if you're really adamant about debunking some folks' thesis
about the origins of capitalism -- there are venues where that effort
could be more effective.  I doubt that a direct quote by Winston
Churchill speaks for itself.

The settlement of the historical argument does not weigh *directly* on
the issue of what the specific essence of capitalist production is.
And that's my beef with your way of reasoning.  Plunder, expropriation
by force, enslavement, and murder have been common to the whole arch
of human history.  These horrors have been turbocharged under
capitalism.  Yet, neither of these methods create wealth.  They only
reshuffle existing wealth -- and destroy some in the process.

The key to understanding modern societies -- the sequence of
industrial revolutions that have led from the artisan shop in the
Middle Ages to Smith's needle factory to Engels' cotton factory in
Manchester to Ford's assembly line to object-oriented programming,
etc., the social upheavals in the last few centuries, and the
expansion of human possibilities thus making human emancipation from
need and exploitation a reachable goal -- lies in the characteristic
mode of creation of wealth, in the mode of reproduction of social
life, in the basic mode of exploitation of labor.

What Marx argued was that the primitive methods of exploitation were
being superseded, pushed to the corners, sublated, transformed into
subsidiary methods by the new mode of production: surplus value
production.  Pinning down the specific essence of capitalist
production allowed him to roughly anticipate the direction of concrete
capitalist societies in ways that conflating capitalist exploitation
with other modes of exploitation would have precluded.  I don't know
how we can observe recent history and not see how right the guy was.

Frankly, based on what I know of you, I don't believe you are
motivated by a genuine search for historical truth.  You seem to be
driven by the desire to shock and prove that you're more radical than
the Joneses.  Proudhon argued that property was theft.  That seemed
like a deeply radical notion.  Marx showed that what appeared to be a
radical critique of property and capitalism was actually superficial,
circular reasoning, and a political dead end.  You may think that by
re-defining capitalist production as based on extra-economic
exploitation, your thesis becomes much more radical than Marx's.  But
that's in your head only.

[I don't have time to proof this note.  Apologies beforehand.]

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