Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >> It would also be useful to see who has signed on as the lead or to work on
> >> a particular subproject in case other developers would like to either lead
> >> or help a lead on the project.
> >>
> >> I would request a vote interface but I think we would get to many
> >> mysqlisms ;)
> >
> > You are dreaming on this one.
> Man then all those other FOSS projects like (KDE/Mozilla) that do it must 
> be sleeping through the whole development cycle.

I doubt you want to put Mozilla up as a better managed project than us. 
And the Mozilla roadmap was a joke, and probably helped them fail while
more nimble Firefox took over.

> >  Of our changes in any major release,
> > probably 40% are from the TODO list, and 60% are just patches submitted.
> > How does something even get on the TODO list from a patch?
> A bug/request tracker?

We have discussed that.  You want tracking or work accomplished?  Pick
one.  Ideally we could do both, but we have finite resources.  I am sure
something like Open Office or one of those big company-funded projects
can do this, but the bureaucracy has its own disadvantages, and I doubt
most of us would accept them.

> > To do what you want requires someone with technical knowledge to spend
> > serious time analyzing the CVS commits and digesting it into a web page.
> Not if the infrastructure is put in place to deal with it in the first 
> place.
> If a patch is accepted, when it is accepted a simple message that says:
> Accepted for 8.2 + Adds capability to program VCR

We have that in the CVS logs.  Why don't _you_ track the commits and
keep a web site up to date, or someone else?  That's all it takes  ---
take the CVS commits, merge them and summarize them on a web site.  Why
has no one done that yet if it is so needed?

> Pretty much does everything we need.

Go ahead.  No one is stopping someone from doing that?  Do they need
help from the project to do that?  No.

> > I can be done, but it isn't the same purpose as the TODO list.
> Actually it is. It is called overall project management and it is 
> something that has come up here many times.
> I guess I just don't understand why so many other projects larger then us 
> and much smaller then us can do it, but we can't.
> Here are some examples of some projects that have actual stated goals that 
> are OSS:
> Gnome
> Trac
> Django
> Firebird
> Python

Please show me an actual example, not a project list.  I picked Trac at
random and looked at their web site.  The Timeline is a list of message
that all say Sandbox or Ticket.  I don't see how that helps more than
our CVS logs.  I looked at roadmap and it had a few bullet points but
was to small/general.  Our TODO list blows it away in detail and size.

> We do, provide some feedback to what is going on from the web site but the 
> barrier is pretty high in comparison to these other web sites. Not to 
> mention how hard it is to figure out what bugs have been patched or 
> haven't.

Agreed.  We need someone to maintain that.  Who wants to do it?  It only
requires HTML skills, which I think enough people in this project
already have.

Basically, there are two things to track --- what will/might happen
(TODO), and what has happened (CVS).  Right now CVS only becomes visible
when a release happens, and the release notes themselves are abridged,
meaning they don't mention every fix, like fixing the --help argument
display for a command or something.  The TODO does a pretty good job of
what will/might happen, but we could use more work on the pending (not
released yet) changes in CVS, and a release note listing that is more
detailed than what we have now.  I myself am not interested in expending
time in these areas as I am already busy with my current
responsibilities, and I think I am spending my time in the most fruitful
way by concentrating on what I do now.

If I am wrong, please someone tell me why I am wrong.  Don't way we
would like to have X too as well as what we already have, but not supply
any more manpower.  You might as well say you want to live forever, but
not give any way of accomplishing it.

  Bruce Momjian                        |               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

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