well… I think everybody is taking it too personal :) My call was to keep a good environment and try to be more positive on our communication. And to try to provide advice with the criticism (and to provide fixes when possible). I’m completely aware that people has other things to do than Pharo… but being just in the place of criticise without any positive loop is what I think is not good. Just that, I’m not blaming anyone, just making a call for keep the good will.
Esteban > On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:07, Thierry Goubier <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Esteban, > > I'm not sure my answer will please you or stef, and maybe I shouldn't voice > it, staying being a "customer" instead of contributing "the way you want it". > Hard words, but yours are hard too. > > I'd say simply that Pharo is successfull, fairly successfull for someone like > me. It allows me to engage in complex work, in what I do best and what > affords me to be paid and have the freedom to use Pharo. Some of those things > suppose that I maintain and extend fairly complex packages on top of Pharo, > and deal with permanent, multiple overlapping interruptions (meeting, > administrative work, travels, etc...). Pharo is great, it allows me to build > a significant activity on top of it. > > Some of the consequences of that success? I'm looking at things that works > now, not in Pharo 5, 6, or 7. I'm a bit frightened by grandiose rewritting > attempts which will be usable in a version or 2, at best, and leave an > unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is > integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit integration, > TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core libs extensions > (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version (4.0), and I'm > really not impressed by the software development process. > > The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions behind > you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some progress on the > way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the deprecation API > backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of methodology, not > of new features being added on). > > If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the way > you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" way > of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that contributing > effectively is too costly. > > And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing > down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like me > that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And please, > no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the feeling > you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its goals. > > Regards, > > Thierry > > 2014-10-03 13:44 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>: > Hi, > > I’m writing this because I’m sad about what is happening in this list. > I’m seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to discuss > things. > I’m also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular > interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who > contribute back to Pharo. > Finally, I’m seeing more frequently an attitude of “customer”, more than the > conviction than this, Pharo, is also yours… > > Please people, we (the pharo “core” team) cannot do everything. We do not > have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we > just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on > this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not “pharo > the language”, so this is a collateral advantage….) > > So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there is > a lot of things that depend on the community. > It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem in > general too. > > So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. > I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the > joy of participating in this collective effort. > > So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: > > - Be positive. Just “this is a s**t” does not help. Even if it is. > - Be propositional. Just “this is a s**t”, and not telling what you > want/prefer does not help. > - Be proactive. Just “this is a s**t”, and not report, discuss and (at least > time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. > > In conclusion: not helping does not help :) > After all, this is the “pharo-dev” list. I mean, the list of people wanting > to participate from this great, community effort. > > cheers, > Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community > > > >
