Generalisations and assumptions lead nowhere , personally I prefer someone that will tell me "fuck you I don't like your attitude" than someone that tries via diplomacy to make a point just so he does not raise the tentions and hurt egos.
If there is such a problem as you claim and you are serious about addressing it then you will have to point the finger and engage in a discussion with those people. Maybe they are not as unreasonable as you think and if they are you can always show them the fire exit. Personally I cannot think of anyone that complains all the time and never is positive or complain the majority of the times. I also like what Thierry is claiming, there are times I wish that Pharo was a lot like Cuis and was aiming more at simplifying and minimising than extending. I am not saying that Pharoers should not try new ideas and improve existing I am talking strictly what goes inside the core. I don't want Pharo to grow to something the size of Java because frankly the community is too small to maintain so much code. But maybe I am wrong time will tell. If you want more people to contribute then it will be necessary to make the core smaller and easier to digest. Create a nice installer that then will install all the external stuff that can be as complex as they want to be. Configurations browser is a step towards the right direction and so is Versioner. On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected]> wrote: > well… I think everybody is taking it too personal :) > My call was to keep a good environment and try to be more positive on our > communication. > And to try to provide advice with the criticism (and to provide fixes when > possible). > I’m completely aware that people has other things to do than Pharo… but > being just in the place of criticise without any positive loop is what I > think is not good. > Just that, I’m not blaming anyone, just making a call for keep the good > will. > > Esteban > > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:07, Thierry Goubier <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Esteban, > > I'm not sure my answer will please you or stef, and maybe I shouldn't > voice it, staying being a "customer" instead of contributing "the way you > want it". Hard words, but yours are hard too. > > I'd say simply that Pharo is successfull, fairly successfull for someone > like me. It allows me to engage in complex work, in what I do best and what > affords me to be paid and have the freedom to use Pharo. Some of those > things suppose that I maintain and extend fairly complex packages on top of > Pharo, and deal with permanent, multiple overlapping interruptions > (meeting, administrative work, travels, etc...). Pharo is great, it allows > me to build a significant activity on top of it. > > Some of the consequences of that success? I'm looking at things that works > now, not in Pharo 5, 6, or 7. I'm a bit frightened by grandiose rewritting > attempts which will be usable in a version or 2, at best, and leave an > unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is > integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit > integration, TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core > libs extensions (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version > (4.0), and I'm really not impressed by the software development process. > > The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions > behind you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some > progress on the way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the > deprecation API backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of > methodology, not of new features being added on). > > If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the > way you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" > way of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that > contributing effectively is too costly. > > And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing > down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like > me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And > please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the > feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its > goals. > > Regards, > > Thierry > > 2014-10-03 13:44 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected]>: > >> Hi, >> >> I’m writing this because I’m sad about what is happening in this list. >> I’m seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to >> discuss things. >> I’m also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular >> interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who >> contribute back to Pharo. >> Finally, I’m seeing more frequently an attitude of “customer”, more than >> the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yours… >> >> Please people, we (the pharo “core” team) cannot do everything. We do not >> have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we >> just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on >> this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not “pharo >> the language”, so this is a collateral advantage….) >> >> So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that >> there is a lot of things that depend on the community. >> It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem >> in general too. >> >> So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. >> I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome >> the joy of participating in this collective effort. >> >> So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: >> >> - Be positive. Just “this is a s**t” does not help. Even if it is. >> - Be propositional. Just “this is a s**t”, and not telling what you >> want/prefer does not help. >> - Be proactive. Just “this is a s**t”, and not report, discuss and (at >> least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. >> >> In conclusion: not helping does not help :) >> After all, this is the “pharo-dev” list. I mean, the list of people >> wanting to participate from this great, community effort. >> >> cheers, >> Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community >> >> >> >> > >
