Sorry folks, can't help myself. Reactions below.... On May 26, 2009, at 6:12 AM, stepken wrote:
>> Pharo developers are few and limited. They are trying to do all of >> their >> best on Pharo. We know this an important package but perhaps they >> have more >> important things to do. Pharo is not even in a beta of first >> milestone. This >> can be planned in a future milestone. > > Hmmm. How many manyears were invested in Squeak? 1000, 2000? > > You have removed lots of code due to "license problems". See R.A. > Harmon code. What a pitty to throw away code ... > > Do you really think, he really cares about his former code > contribution to a system, which from the beginning was free and open? So anytime you want to, you can just decide what someone else's intention for their code contribution was and do what you want? Each person owns his own code, and Pharo has to be careful and have actual permission to use the code they distribute. > > Don't you think, every jugde would confirm, that such code > contributions were made in the sense of "giveaways"? Are you going to pay for the lawyers necessary to defend such an untenable argument? > > I think you don't have a real understanding of what you have > destroyed now. > > Having rewritten array/colletions/streams code ... a bit shorter > code now, because of traits. Who really cares? People write a lot of code because they desire to; what is the point of Traits if you never use it in your system? > > You want to build a commercial platform to make money. Supported. Yes. I have paid (and still am) several squeak/pharo developers for support on these systems. Dolphin is windows only, which kills it for a lot of people. > > Didn't you all Smalltalk Developers notice, that even Dolphin was > close to give up? They hat to find their new business model. And > they also have a very sophisticated *free* version. > > GNU Smalltalk 3.0 ... fine thing, free, can run seaside, pier, .... > what do i need more? Free! No, that is GPL, which has plenty of freedom restrictions. > > Do you really hope to get one cent for supporting a free smalltalk > platform? > Absolutely they will. > I really appreciate your effords. There are things, that had to be > done on Squeak. Traits, 5th implemention of closures ... How many implementations of closures? what are you talking about? Do you take each individual person who had a project on this platform assume that was the will of the community? > > But ... you haven't included the old code contributors at Viewpoint > Research Institute, MIT (Scratch), HPI Berlin. Pharo has some very specific goals for a clean, well factored, test- driven base Smalltalk system. I suggest you take that into account; what you want is a giant unmaintainable mess of spaghetti. > > Where are your plans to give back your code changes to squeak/ > scratch community? No. Very egoistic, IMHO. All the code is free and available, and there is no stopping of squeak/ scratch/other community members reintegrating anything they like. > > Where is the "soft refactoring" without destroying anything ...? At > the moment ... i see some developments with pleasure, others are > catastrophic ... > > Eliot writing the 10th implementation of a squeak jitter. Fine. > Every profesional company uses LLVM. Apple e.g. Again, what are you talking about? I've never heard of 9 previous jit implementations. In one sentence you complain that Pharo throws away code and doesn't use stuff from every other squeak based system, and then you want the whole system re-implemented on LLVM? Wow. > > I wanted to know, how fast a programming language with jitter could > be done. It took me about 2 weeks ...LL(1) grammar, LLVM ... works > like a charm on Intel, ARM, PPC ... and really fast! Other platforms > to be tested. Of cause, lots of things to be done .. debugging ... > profiling ... no classbrowser ... but i can run older squeak code > with morphic. 80%/20% problem ;-) Or rather 90/10? Dunnow, i stopped > the development. Was an experiment. > Interesting... where is the code? is it free? why didn't you finish it? Maybe Eliot or someone else could benefit from it, but not now. > Will Eliots jitter run on different processor architectures? No! 386 > machine code only. So - no real portability! Who really cares that > stuff then? Ever heard of the giant chinese market? They use MIPS > clone 32+64Bit processors with Linux now. Everywhere. China can't > officially use Intel, because of too much power consumption. I've > been there several times. MIPS, everywhere. In China and Japan you > find lots of people doing squeak stuff. Potential code contributors > code developers for Pharo, partners! It all comes back to time and money. Eliot is being paid by Qwaq, and they are generously allowing all that work to go back to the community. Who are you funding to do work? Or what work are you contributing? > > Morphic code .. from SELF Programming Language development ... then > ported to squeak, then to Javascript. Fine. ETOYS on TOP. > > Where is my loved ETOYS? The only reason to use Squeak or Pharo! > Education was and is the domain of Squeak. Nothing else. Squeakland.org - OLPC Project (ever hear of it?) > > I asked Frank Lesser for EToys / Morphic on top of his Smalltalk. > Matured, blindingly fast, Jitter written in Assembler. Now the base > for DNG. Not a great problem, he meant, he had it once ported for > testing purposes. > > If i really needed a sophisticated smalltalk to start new > projects ... what do you think, what i would take? Smalltalk for > educational purposes, e.g.? I have free choice. But no ETOYS, > anywhere. Children really love EToys. It's a marvelous software > package for educational purposes. > > Many companies are caught in their own jail of huge masses of GUI > code. They can't go with other smalltalks. Will they ever change to > a "supported Pharo"? I think: No. > > Morphic ... no MVC, no MVP. What has happened to Tweak code? ETOYS > was ported to that GUI. That code was quite ok. Why haven't the code > autors spent that code for Squeak/Pharo? First you have to be able to remove Morphic from it's death grip on the system and have packages all the way down. Then start integrating new GUI frameworks. > > So please ... don't tell me you haven't enough hands at the moment. > Do the right things, not just some few things right, beautifying > GUI, implemeting the 5th version of closures and well ... traits. It sounds like you need to start you own Smalltalk system, based on LLVM, or your own super fast jitter that you wrote in two weeks. Then you can crowdsource all you want. Lot's of people are participating and things are going swimmingly. The tone of your emails are offensive and you cast aspersion on everyone working on the Pharo project. If you don't like it, don't read the list and don't use it. > > Do 'crowdsourceing', invite people to contribute, learn community > organizing first. Give them a reason to contribute. Give them a > future, a business modell to participate. > > Your egoistic path to make a commercial supported free smalltalk ... > good idea, but you are lightyears far from that. > > Leo Penta wrote a nice book about that 'crowdsourceing' stuff, or > reread "Eric Raymond - Cathedral and the basaar" again and again and > again. *PARTICIPATION* Bring people to participate your business > model. > > LEARN from the mistakes, many, many good programmers did. See TWEAK > bad fate. Dead development process. Good sourcecode, lost in > space ... like many squeak packages. > > *Defective development process*. I posted that as issue, it was > deleted by someone not really understanding, what i meant. > > thanx for understanding. > > cheers, Guido Stepken > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
