Pharo is getting hot. It seems that we have our own little troll. Champaign everybody :)
Stef > Sorry folks, can't help myself. Reactions below.... > > On May 26, 2009, at 6:12 AM, stepken wrote: > >>> Pharo developers are few and limited. They are trying to do all of >>> their >>> best on Pharo. We know this an important package but perhaps they >>> have more >>> important things to do. Pharo is not even in a beta of first >>> milestone. This >>> can be planned in a future milestone. >> >> Hmmm. How many manyears were invested in Squeak? 1000, 2000? >> >> You have removed lots of code due to "license problems". See R.A. >> Harmon code. What a pitty to throw away code ... >> >> Do you really think, he really cares about his former code >> contribution to a system, which from the beginning was free and open? > > So anytime you want to, you can just decide what someone else's > intention for their code contribution was and do what you want? Each > person owns his own code, and Pharo has to be careful and have actual > permission to use the code they distribute. > > >> >> Don't you think, every jugde would confirm, that such code >> contributions were made in the sense of "giveaways"? > > Are you going to pay for the lawyers necessary to defend such an > untenable argument? > >> >> I think you don't have a real understanding of what you have >> destroyed now. >> >> Having rewritten array/colletions/streams code ... a bit shorter >> code now, because of traits. Who really cares? > > People write a lot of code because they desire to; what is the point > of Traits if you never use it in your system? > >> >> You want to build a commercial platform to make money. Supported. >> Yes. > > I have paid (and still am) several squeak/pharo developers for support > on these systems. Dolphin is windows only, which kills it for a lot of > people. > >> >> Didn't you all Smalltalk Developers notice, that even Dolphin was >> close to give up? They hat to find their new business model. And >> they also have a very sophisticated *free* version. >> >> GNU Smalltalk 3.0 ... fine thing, free, can run seaside, pier, .... >> what do i need more? Free! > > No, that is GPL, which has plenty of freedom restrictions. > >> >> Do you really hope to get one cent for supporting a free smalltalk >> platform? >> > > Absolutely they will. > >> I really appreciate your effords. There are things, that had to be >> done on Squeak. Traits, 5th implemention of closures ... > > How many implementations of closures? what are you talking about? Do > you take each individual person who had a project on this platform > assume that was the will of the community? > >> >> But ... you haven't included the old code contributors at Viewpoint >> Research Institute, MIT (Scratch), HPI Berlin. > > Pharo has some very specific goals for a clean, well factored, test- > driven base Smalltalk system. I suggest you take that into account; > what you want is a giant unmaintainable mess of spaghetti. > >> >> Where are your plans to give back your code changes to squeak/ >> scratch community? No. Very egoistic, IMHO. > > All the code is free and available, and there is no stopping of > squeak/ > scratch/other community members reintegrating anything they like. > >> >> Where is the "soft refactoring" without destroying anything ...? At >> the moment ... i see some developments with pleasure, others are >> catastrophic ... >> >> Eliot writing the 10th implementation of a squeak jitter. Fine. >> Every profesional company uses LLVM. Apple e.g. > > Again, what are you talking about? I've never heard of 9 previous jit > implementations. In one sentence you complain that Pharo throws away > code and doesn't use stuff from every other squeak based system, and > then you want the whole system re-implemented on LLVM? Wow. > >> >> I wanted to know, how fast a programming language with jitter could >> be done. It took me about 2 weeks ...LL(1) grammar, LLVM ... works >> like a charm on Intel, ARM, PPC ... and really fast! Other platforms >> to be tested. Of cause, lots of things to be done .. debugging ... >> profiling ... no classbrowser ... but i can run older squeak code >> with morphic. 80%/20% problem ;-) Or rather 90/10? Dunnow, i stopped >> the development. Was an experiment. >> > > Interesting... where is the code? is it free? why didn't you finish > it? Maybe Eliot or someone else could benefit from it, but not now. > >> Will Eliots jitter run on different processor architectures? No! 386 >> machine code only. So - no real portability! Who really cares that >> stuff then? Ever heard of the giant chinese market? They use MIPS >> clone 32+64Bit processors with Linux now. Everywhere. China can't >> officially use Intel, because of too much power consumption. I've >> been there several times. MIPS, everywhere. In China and Japan you >> find lots of people doing squeak stuff. Potential code contributors >> code developers for Pharo, partners! > > It all comes back to time and money. Eliot is being paid by Qwaq, and > they are generously allowing all that work to go back to the > community. Who are you funding to do work? Or what work are you > contributing? > >> >> Morphic code .. from SELF Programming Language development ... then >> ported to squeak, then to Javascript. Fine. ETOYS on TOP. >> >> Where is my loved ETOYS? The only reason to use Squeak or Pharo! >> Education was and is the domain of Squeak. Nothing else. > > Squeakland.org - > OLPC Project (ever hear of it?) > >> >> I asked Frank Lesser for EToys / Morphic on top of his Smalltalk. >> Matured, blindingly fast, Jitter written in Assembler. Now the base >> for DNG. Not a great problem, he meant, he had it once ported for >> testing purposes. >> >> If i really needed a sophisticated smalltalk to start new >> projects ... what do you think, what i would take? Smalltalk for >> educational purposes, e.g.? I have free choice. But no ETOYS, >> anywhere. Children really love EToys. It's a marvelous software >> package for educational purposes. >> >> Many companies are caught in their own jail of huge masses of GUI >> code. They can't go with other smalltalks. Will they ever change to >> a "supported Pharo"? I think: No. >> >> Morphic ... no MVC, no MVP. What has happened to Tweak code? ETOYS >> was ported to that GUI. That code was quite ok. Why haven't the code >> autors spent that code for Squeak/Pharo? > > First you have to be able to remove Morphic from it's death grip on > the system and have packages all the way down. Then start integrating > new GUI frameworks. > >> >> So please ... don't tell me you haven't enough hands at the moment. >> Do the right things, not just some few things right, beautifying >> GUI, implemeting the 5th version of closures and well ... traits. > > It sounds like you need to start you own Smalltalk system, based on > LLVM, or your own super fast jitter that you wrote in two weeks. Then > you can crowdsource all you want. Lot's of people are participating > and things are going swimmingly. > > > The tone of your emails are offensive and you cast aspersion on > everyone working on the Pharo project. If you don't like it, don't > read the list and don't use it. > >> >> Do 'crowdsourceing', invite people to contribute, learn community >> organizing first. Give them a reason to contribute. Give them a >> future, a business modell to participate. >> >> Your egoistic path to make a commercial supported free smalltalk ... >> good idea, but you are lightyears far from that. >> >> Leo Penta wrote a nice book about that 'crowdsourceing' stuff, or >> reread "Eric Raymond - Cathedral and the basaar" again and again and >> again. *PARTICIPATION* Bring people to participate your business >> model. >> >> LEARN from the mistakes, many, many good programmers did. See TWEAK >> bad fate. Dead development process. Good sourcecode, lost in >> space ... like many squeak packages. >> >> *Defective development process*. I posted that as issue, it was >> deleted by someone not really understanding, what i meant. >> >> thanx for understanding. >> >> cheers, Guido Stepken >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
