Hi Adrian,
> still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best >solution,
The "egg thing" was not meant as argument, I apologize if this moved
the whole discussion off-topic.
My arguments were listed here [1] so can we please continue to discuss
on these.
>The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before
>- it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo
>>adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore)
OK, we now know:
- it is a single item in Pharo core
- it is a multiple icon in Pharo-dev ("Pharo") since more items
are added
- an "end user" typically uses Pharo-dev
> My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system
> (yet)
In Pharo Core we currently offer:
- the help on help itself (which should be enough for core since
we typically ship additional stuff in Pharo/Pharo-dev)
There is more in "Pharo":
- Welcome Workspace
- ProfStef
- HelpBrowser
- with a loaded book for Pharo including a full browsable API
as Stef wanted.
- a help book for ScriptManager
- the help on help
And yes it needs more work but this is independent from
the discussion to find a (root) place and make Help accessible
>it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level.
This is something I dont buy for three reasons (sorry for
repeating my thoughts):
- Getting "Help" is in almost any application I know of easily
accessible at the root level and not hidden in another
menu. Look at Firefox, Linux, Opera, ... at least on Win/Linux.
- if you write a commercial app using Pharo as RCP then you want to
provide Help (menu) but you may have no/wish no "System" menu
- If you argue about having it at the top level only under the condition
that the content gets better then why wait until the content gets
better and confuse people at that point in time?
Can't we just put it where we want it and work on better content?
- I think we can agree that we dont want to have "System -> Help"
in Core and root "Help" menu in Pharo to have them in sync
- Ask a newbie to find help (I tried with a non-Smalltalk friend today
and he also didnt expect it under "System"). He also said it would
be better to just have "Help". Therefore I would vote to better
move "Debug" away from the root level.
>On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus >around.
>If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years >ago, our menus
>would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak >version. Of course
>stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean >up and optimize.
>Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at >first but is quickly
>amortized.
Again: I'm not agains menu moving to clean things up (especially
the bloated Squeak menus)
But currently we discuss about a good place for the help menu
and you suggested to keep it under System and (if better content
is available) move it. But this has nothing to do with cleanup.
At which point in time will you move it? How do you measure the quality
of the content?
Let us think about the best place today, nail it down and
improve content constantly. Nothing more.
Bye
T.
- the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big
help at the moment
[1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-June/028287.html
--
GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.
Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
