I don't understand when this thread became so focused on monetary needs. We
are talking about penetrating corporate markets, and all corporate markets
care about is time to market, cost of maintenance, and long term support.
Not that marketing is worthless, but if we build a better product, it will
be used whether we do some Houdini use-our-product marketing game or not.
The future of PHP will be determined by the dedication and sacrifice of the
developers associated with it. Every success is measured in sacrifice. In
the realm of Java and .NET it is primarily a monetary sacrifice - they could
have spent that money on something else, but elected to spend it on this
instead. Every member of the PHP team could have spent their time on
something else, but chose this. This continued dedication will yield just as
much success in the long run. The true reason that Java gets a huge boost
from marketing is that marketing creates the labor market of qualified
people by encouraging people to retrain based on a perceived market for the
technology. It is the perception that creates the market. Voodoo economics
at its best.

As I said before, PHP is already discussed in the corporate circles that
matter, and the recurring theme is getting qualified people to do it. Sure,
experienced Java or C or ASP (bleh) gurus could retrain easily and be able
to handle PHP with no trouble. Who cares? They're not there yet. That
affects time to market. When we look at pure numbers, there is a direct
correlation between the corporate growth of PHP and the labor market of PHP
developers. While we cannot create a labor market out of perceptual metrics,
we have, in my opinion, the strongest and most comprehensive web scripting
language on the planet, and that will make the future of PHP bright and
limitless. The never ending dedication of the hundreds of developers and the
thousands of people preaching its wonders will ultimately propel us to the
front page of every buzzword magazine in circulation. This will happen
whether we have silly games, spend a billion dollars on ad campaigns, build
trade show booths that look like space rockets, or give away door prizes for
making tricky code.

Manuel, I can only urge you to focus on reality instead of Utopia. We have a
better product and that is all we have. The good news? That's all we need.
Maybe a little patience and some free pizza too, but that's neither here nor
there. Economics says so.


Cristopher Daniluk
President & CEO
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/

-----Original Message-----
From: Manuel Lemos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP


> > These guys resort to these marketing tricks to promote Python as hell,
> > and the PHP people just sits and waits doing almost nothing in
> > comparision to promote PHP as hard as they can even when they lives
> > depend on the acceptance of PHP as a wide spread language!
> Manuel, please, give this tirade a rest.  Nobody associated with Python
> development was involved in this "amazing" marketing trick you are
> referring to.  Somebody just decided to do this on their own.  And now you
> are criticizing the PHP developers for not having the same foresight as
> the Python developers?

Yes. I feel that it is a constructive criticism, like saying, there are
plenty of ways to market PHP, with or without money, but what you do in
comparision is very little to what Python people do. So, you need to do
more. I am not saying that what you do is wrong.

> It says so right in their FAQ
> (http://software-carpentry.codesourcery.com/faq.html)
> "And in answer to some of the more virulent postings on Usenet and in
>  other venues, neither Guido van Rossum nor anyone else associated with
>  Python development was involved in setting up this project, choosing the
>  language, or defining the terms of the competition. Guido was only asked
>  to be a judge after the decision to use Python had been made. If we
>  had decided to use Perl or Tcl, we would obviously have invited Larry
>  Wall or John Ousterhout to join the panel."

What this says is something like if applied to PHP, what we are doing
was not Rasmus initiative, although he accepted to be a judge in the
contest. That doesn't matter, they are still committed to market Python
like hell.

> If somebody wants to put up $100,000 for a PHP software contest, perfect,
> great, we will be every bit as cooperative as the Python developers.

Money doesn't come that easily. You have to go after it if you feel it
is needed. What won't help is staying there and do nothing, because I
think the money won't come to you from the sky. You need to find
sponsors. I'm sure it won't be hard if you really bother to look for

Manuel Lemos

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