Ngulang-ngulang terus kayak gini sebenernya capek. Tapi dengan niatan mendapat sedikit pahala kebaikan dari Allah Swt. Oke lah ... saya tanggapi lagi :
Pada usia berapa Muhammad menikahi nabi ? Secara umum pendapat mengatakan pada usia 53 tahun, betul ? Pada Usia berapa Muhammad menerima wahyu ? Keterangan umum menyatakan pada usia 40 tahun, Betul ? Artinya ... ada jarak 13 Tahun antara pengangkatan kenabian sampai dengan saat muhammad menikahi Aisyah, Betul ? OK ... Simpen tuh angka --- 13 TAHUN **** Aiyah adalah orang ke dua puluh sekian yang mengikrarkan diri masuk islam. Membaca kalimah syahadat, Betul ? Artinya pada masa awal kenabian, Aisyah sudah remaja, Betul ? Artinya usia aisyah saat dinikahi nabi adalah 13 Tahun PLUS usia aisyah sebelum masuk islam, Betul ? OK ... Kita balik lagi ... Jika Aiyah Dinikahi nabi pada usia 9 atau 6 Tahun, dan saat itu usia nabi adalah 53. BERAPA USIA AISYAH SAAT MASUK ISLAM ? Jawab Tem ! --- In [email protected], item abu <itemabu@...> wrote: > > Hehehe... orang Islam sampe ngebual Aisha diembat di usia 21 thn. > > Kalo ditanya mana buktinya, maka yg keluar adalah kibulan yg ga jelas > sumbernya sama sekali, sambil ngoceh bhw hadis Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud dll > itu adalah hadis palsu, padahal dgn bejibunnya hadis yg ngomongin hal yg sama > maka hadis tsb merupakan hadis yg mutawatir. > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Musik hari Ini <musikhariini@...> > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:42 PM > >Subject: Re: [proletar] Re: Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her > >Marriage to The Prophet > > > > > > > >Itu orang dikawinin umur 21 taon > >tapi elu masih maksa saja > >kalau elu itu jelas meng2ulang kalimat "ngembat anak belon mens" > >buat orang yang pernah belajar sedikit elmu JIWA tentu ada terkaan > >pegulangan kalimat dalam pengulangan terus menerus dan digunakan > >pada sembarang tempat..........tentu gua bisa ambil kesimpulan tentang > >anda itu siapa,apa yang pernah elu lalkukan,apa yang pernah elu alami > >dalam phisoko analisis manusia jenis kayak elu itu bisa dimasukan > >pada orang dewasa yang pernah mengalami pedophobia > > > >________________________________ > >From: item abu <itemabu@...> > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:16 AM > >Subject: Re: [proletar] Re: Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her > >Marriage to The Prophet > > > > > > > >Jadi nurut lu ga bejad ngembat anak 9 thn. > > > >Dgn begitu, lu jg gpp ngembat anak 9 thn krn nabi lu itu hrs lu jadikan suri > >tauladan, bukan? > > > >>________________________________ > >> From: Abbas <abas_amin08@...> > >>To: [email protected] > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:31 PM > >>Subject: [proletar] Re: Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage > >>to The Prophet > >> > >> > >> > >>Tidak usah ditutupin. Itu bukan perbuatan bejat! Saksinya bapaknya > >>Abubakar, dan seluruh orang Islam ! > >>Kalau seluruh komunitas menyatakan itu sah ! Tiada kebejatan. Hanya saja > >>kaaum anti Islam urusannya digede gedein. Karena tak ada lain selain > >>sasarannya ingin MENGHUJAT islam. Merubah pandaangan MUSLIM !??? > >>Hahahaha manusia anti islam semuanya rata2 GOUBLOKKK !!! Nyaris IDIOT dan > >>Debil semua. Mana mampu merubah pandangan ? > >>Mereka pun semuanya TUKANG CATUT ! mencatut nama ILMUWAN dan disalurkan > >>menjadi anti Islam. > >>Padahal para Ilmuwan Netral semua. > >>Anti Islam; walau bagaimanapun akan tetap menyebut islam suaaaaangaaaat > >>jelek ! > >>Jadi yaa gak aneh gak heran lah kalau kerjaan mereka sehari hari disini > >>hanya buang2 tempo tiada arti; hanya untuk memaki maki Islam ! > >>kasiaaaan memang. Otak dan pikirannya telah dipenuhi dendam kesumat !!!! > >>Memang seharusnya kita kasiaaan kepada mereka anti islam. > >> > >>--- In [email protected], item abu <itemabu@> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hehehe... orang Islam mau nutupin perbuatan nabinya ngembat anak ingusan > >>> 9 > >>> thn dgn ngibul. Jadi mereka mau nutupin kebejadan dgn kebejadan lain. > >>> � > >>> http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1 > >>> � > >>> Question ID:4604 > >>> Date Published: July 03, 2005 > >>> Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet > >>> Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad > >>> � > >>> Question: > >>> To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe > >>> that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of > >>> the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate > >>> their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single > >>> dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as > >>> nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are > >>> given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really > >>> was an accepted norm. > >>> � > >>> Answer: > >>> � > >>> In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, > >>> � > >>> - Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar > >>> when > >>> she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place in > >>> Safar 360 > >>> H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil). > >>> � > >>> - Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of > >>> nine-year > >>> old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the > >>> Sunan > >>> al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar. > >>> � > >>> - Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than > >>> three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten. > >>> � > >>> - Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to > >>> forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima > >>> bint > >>> al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad). > >>> � > >>> - Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and > >>> Fatima at > >>> a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others. > >>> � > >>> - And our Mother `Aisha herself was first almost betrothed to Jubayr ibn > >>> Mut`im before her father dropped that option when he received word from > >>> the > >>> Messenger of Allah, Allah bless and greet him and be well-pleased with > >>> them. > >>> � > >>> In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly > >>> mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives > >>> reporting this event are not only highly unreliable, but also that on the > >>> basis > >>> of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely > >>> happening. > >>> Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations > >>> in > >>> accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the > >>> time > >>> of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are: > >>> Most of > >>> these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, reporting on the > >>> authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being > >>> reported, > >>> should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or > >>> three. > >>> � > >>> Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it > >>> directly > >>> from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the > >>> same, > >>> nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha. > >>> � > >>> It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where > >>> Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has > >>> narrated the > >>> event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as > >>> Malik > >>> ibn Anas. > >>> � > >>> Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd > >>> Allah > >>> ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who > >>> reports it > >>> from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d > >>> ibn > >>> Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, one of the Seven > >>> Imams > >>> of Madina, from `A'isha. All the narratives of this event have been > >>> reported > >>> � > >>> Nor by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported > >>> to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years. > >>> � > >>> Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators, Sufyan > >>> ibn > >>> `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from > >>> Tabarayya in > >>> Palestine both report it. > >>> � > >>> Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik ibn > >>> `Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn > >>> `Awf, Yahya > >>> ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn > >>> Mas`ud) and > >>> others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha. > >>> � > >>> This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over > >>> eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major > >>> Companions > >>> that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major Successors > >>> that > >>> reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada! > >>> � > >>> Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on > >>> the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the > >>> Prophet > >>> (pbuh), reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported > >>> by > >>> Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of > >>> Iraq". > >>> It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of > >>> Hisham > >>> which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol11, pg 48 - 51) > >>> � > >>> Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt), > >>> above > >>> reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated overly > >>> from his > >>> father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub does not exactly > >>> endorse > >>> that criticism. > >>> � > >>> As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in > >>> the > >>> two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the > >>> authenticity of > >>> his alleged criticism of Hisham. > >>> � > >>> Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since > >>> they > >>> were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he was 71 > >>> at the > >>> time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity, would say, "My > >>> father, > >>> from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer pronounced, "narrated to > >>> me > >>> (haddathani)". > >>> � > >>> Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a foregone > >>> conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything > >>> from his father except what he had heard directly from him. > >>> � > >>> Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as > >>> negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough to > >>> the > >>> Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he had > >>> heard > >>> directly from him". > >>> � > >>> In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are > >>> reliable > >>> except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is major > >>> nonsense as > >>> that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub al-Sakhtyani from him since > >>> Ayyub > >>> was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu `Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, > >>> and > >>> those of Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), > >>> and those > >>> of Hammad ibn Salama and Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of > >>> Sufyan > >>> al-Thawri from Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated > >>> from > >>> Hisham! > >>> � > >>> Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of > >>> the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, > >>> Hisham's > >>> memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302) > >>> � > >>> An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301 > >>> #9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A > >>> Proof in > >>> himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory diminished, but > >>> he > >>> certainly never became confused. Nor should any attention be paid to what > >>> Abu > >>> al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming > >>> confused > >>> or changing! Yes, the man changed a little bit and his memory was not the > >>> same > >>> as it had been in his younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had > >>> memorized or lapsed, so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And > >>> when > >>> he came to Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount > >>> of > >>> knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did > >>> not > >>> excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and the > >>> major > >>> trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and floundering, do not > >>> make > >>> mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak and muddled narrators. > >>> Hisham is > >>> a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, > >>> and > >>> the same with regard to `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from > >>> Malik!" > >>> � > >>> According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha > >>> (ra) was born about eight years before Hijra. But according to another > >>> narrative > >>> in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that > >>> at the > >>> time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was > >>> a > >>> young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before > >>> Hijra. > >>> � > >>> Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic commentators > >>> agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before > >>> the Holy > >>> Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina. > >>> � > >>> Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and > >>> eight > >>> years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or little girl > >>> five > >>> years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at the time Surat > >>> al-Qamar > >>> was revealed was around 2 or 3. > >>> � > >>> According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only > >>> been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a > >>> young > >>> girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this > >>> narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the > >>> narratives > >>> reported by Hisham ibn `Urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the > >>> comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `Urwah, why we > >>> should > >>> not accept this narrative to be more accurate. > >>> � > >>> A two year old is not an infant. A two year old is able to run around, > >>> which > >>> is what jariya means. As for "the comments of the experts" they concur on > >>> 6 or 7 > >>> as the age of marriage and 9 as the age of cohabitation. > >>> � > >>> According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) > >>> accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it > >>> is also > >>> reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 > >>> years > >>> was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 > >>> years of > >>> age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and > >>> Uhud > >>> clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. > >>> After all, > >>> women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be > >>> a > >>> burden on them. > >>> � > >>> First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to > >>> non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second, `A'isha > >>> did not > >>> participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants as they > >>> were > >>> leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the day of Uhud > >>> (year 3), > >>> Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years old, reports seeing an > >>> eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm Sulaym having tied up their > >>> dresses > >>> and carrying water skins back and forth to the combatants, as narrated by > >>> al-Bukhari and Muslim. > >>> � > >>> According to almost all the historians, Asma, the > >>> elder sister of Ayesha was ten years older than Ayesha. > >>> � > >>> Well, Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad's assertion that she > >>> was > >>> ten years older than `A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam > >>> al-Nubala' said > >>> there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19, > >>> and he > >>> is more reliable here. > >>> � > >>> It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as > >>> Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 > >>> years old. > >>> Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have > >>> been 27 or > >>> 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the > >>> time > >>> of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, > >>> Ayesha, if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 > >>> to 20 > >>> years old at the time of her marriage. > >>> � > >>> Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father, > >>> that > >>> Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that "Asma' > >>> bint Abi > >>> Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the > >>> beginning of > >>> the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof for `A'isha's age > >>> whatsoever. > >>> � > >>> Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while > >>> mentioning Abu Bakr, reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four > >>> were > >>> born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if > >>> Ayesha was > >>> born in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 > >>> years in > >>> 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married. > >>> � > >>> Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in > >>> Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in > >>> Jahiliyya, > >>> Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two > >>> each, > >>> `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman. > >>> � > >>> According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha > >>> accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab. > >>> � > >>> Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this. > >>> � > >>> This shows that Ayesha accepted Islam during the first > >>> year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's marriage at seven > >>> years of > >>> age is held to be true, Ayesha should not have been born during the first > >>> year > >>> of Islam. > >>> � > >>> Rather, Ibn Hisham lists `A'isha among "those that accepted Islam because > >>> of > >>> Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during the first > >>> year of > >>> Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced Islam before `Umar > >>> (year > >>> 6) although she was born the previous year (year 7 before the Hijra) > >>> although it > >>> is understood she will automatically follow her father's choice even > >>> before the > >>> age of reason. > >>> � > >>> Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr > >>> planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to > >>> Mut`am -- > >>> with whose son Ayesha was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha in his > >>> house > >>> as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, > >>> and > >>> subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). > >>> � > >>> Not at all, there is no mention of emigration in Tabari's account of Abu > >>> Bakr's discussion with Mut`im. Nor did he ever ask him to take `A'isha > >>> because > >>> there had been only some preliminary talk, not a formal arrangement. Umm > >>> Ruman, > >>> Abu Bakr's wife, reportedly said: "By Allah, no promise had been given on > >>> our > >>> part at all!" Rather, al-Tabari said that when news of the Prophet's > >>> interest in > >>> `A'isha came, he went to see Mut`im. Then Mut`im's wife manifested her > >>> fear that > >>> her son would become Muslim if he married into Abu Bakr's family. Abu > >>> Bakr then > >>> left them and gave his assent to the Prophet, upon him blessings and > >>> peace. > >>> � > >>> Now, if Ayesha was only seven years old at the time of > >>> her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided > >>> on > >>> migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only > >>> reasonable to > >>> assume that Ayesha had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was > >>> also a > >>> young lady, quite prepared for marriage. > >>> � > >>> Your assumption fizzles at the root when you read al-Tabari's positive > >>> assertion: "On the day he consummated the marriage with her, she was nine > >>> years > >>> old." > >>> � > >>> According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, > >>> after the death of Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising > >>> him to > >>> marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in her > >>> mind. > >>> Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already > >>> been > >>> married (thayyib)". When the Prophet asked about who the virgin was, > >>> Khaulah > >>> proposed Ayesha's name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware > >>> that > >>> the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine > >>> year old > >>> girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is > >>> "Jariyah". > >>> "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a > >>> nine > >>> year old is not a "lady". > >>> � > >>> This is ignorant nonsense, bikr means a virgin girl, a girl who has never > >>> been married even if her age is 0 and there is no unclarity here > >>> whatsoever. > >>> � > >>> According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older > >>> than Ayesha. Fatimah is reported to have been born when the Prophet was > >>> 35 years > >>> old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha could > >>> by no > >>> means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years > >>> old at > >>> the time of her marriage. > >>> � > >>> Rather, Ibn Hajar mentions two versions: (1) al-Waqidi's narration that > >>> Fatima was born when the Prophet was 35; and (2) Ibn `Abd al-Barr's > >>> narration > >>> that she was born when he was 41, approximately one year more or less > >>> before > >>> Prophethood, and about five years before `A'isha was born. The latter > >>> version > >>> matches the established dates. > >>> � > >>> So our Mother `A'isha was nineteen to twenty years younger than her > >>> sister > >>> Asma' (b. 27 before Hijra-d. 74) and about five years to eight years > >>> Fatima's > >>> junior. > >>> � > >>> These are some of the major points that go against > >>> accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the > >>> time > >>> of her marriage. In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give > >>> away > >>> girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the > >>> Prophet > >>> marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to > >>> this > >>> marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated. > >>> � > >>> Those that itch to follow misguidance always resort to solipsisms because > >>> they are invariably thin on sources. In this particular case "the > >>> Learner" > >>> proves to be ignorant and dishonest. It is no surprise he moves on every > >>> single > >>> point, without exception, from incorrect premises to false conclusions. > >>> � > >>> Hajj Gibril > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ Post message: [email protected] Subscribe : [email protected] Unsubscribe : [email protected] List owner : [email protected] Homepage : http://proletar.8m.com/Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/join (Yahoo! 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