OK Ian, I will elaborate . . .

> On 07:22 PM 22/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said:
> >Speaking of Protel Bugs . . .
> >
> >What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP?
> >
> >1. ) I am betting that the Keyboard / Mouse problem that has been there
> >since Protel 98 has not been fixed.
>
> What problem?
>

Protel 99 SE is at a minimum very instable with Microsoft Mouse Drivers,
especially with Microsoft Intellimosue software and a "wheel mouse". This
bug has been acknowledged in the "knowledge base" as far back as Protel 98,
where the reccommended correction has for years been "install the original
mouse driver" (which is some trick since all Microsoft Operating Systems
have been shipping with Intellimouse software for several years now).

The Problem specifically is that the use of the wheel at a minimum disables
all keyboard shortcuts such as PT for Place Track, and can even go so far as
disabling the PgUp (zoom in) and PgDn (zoom out) type functions in some
cases, and is one of the major causes of Instability and Crashes on many
different types of Machines.

Many Protel Users are unaware of the problems for several reasons:  Some,
since they do not use the keyboard shortcuts but always go to the pulldown
menus, they don't even know that there is a problem other than Protel seems
to crash alot. Some purchase systems complete with the latest Microsoft
Operating Systems custom tailored and installed from companies such as IBM,
DELL, Compac, etc., which have sightly different or slightly modified
"Intellimouse" software that doesn't have the problem. Still others are
lucky enough to have a Logitech Mouse with Logitech Mouseware, which is the
best known solution to the problem. If they are using a system with a
Logitech Mouse and software they may have never heard of or ever seen the
effects of the problem.

The real problem is that Protel has not addressed the problem for several
releases of the software (with several service packs for each release), and
yet it is at the minimum probably one of the largest contributors to
instability and crashes on numerous systems. I would think that Protel would
want to resolve this issue, since I think it would do wonders for the
stability of the product.

While many people in this list have at one time or another discounted this
problem as ranging from simply not having the right driver installed, to
having the wrong video card, to having a flakey machine or flakey
installation of their operating system, all the way down to the problem
being a figment of someones imagination, and even down to your response of
"What problem?", the problem is real.

I actually look at this specific problem and it's continued presence in the
Protel  product as a measure of the competence of the Protel software
developers and programmers, and believe that it has a direct bearing on
their understanding of Microsoft Operating Systems and Applications
Software, and specifically the Microsoft SDK. I find it very "telling" that
the developers of a product such as Protel which is specifically designed
for Windows Operating Systems (at least in its current incarnation), seem to
have so much trouble interfacing with an internationally standard mouse
driver.

I am sorry, but I simply cannot accept some small company like Protel /
Altium in Australia pointing the finger at Microsoft and saying it's their
problem, or worse yet, saying that it is not a problem at all as I was told
by Protel Sales and Technical Support people who said it would not be fixed
until the next software release. WELL THIS IS THE NEXT SOFTWARE RELEASE - IS
IT FIXED?

Ian - This is a REAL bug, and it really does affect alot of installations
out there in the way of crashes.

Please don't make excuses for Protel on this one, it really does need to be
fixed.

>
> >2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there
(yes
> >Ian, I know that you like it, and I know that you wrote a routine to fx
it,
> >but it still is backwards and unlike no other system in the world).
>
> I'm getting a little tired of this one - *you* may think it is wrong,
> others don't. Why do you insist on implying that others are wrong?  I
think
> you could respect others opinions a little by phrasing your complaint not
> as a bug (which it clearly isn't) but as merely your preference.
> Re-centering after a zoom (which is your preference, the lack of which you
> are calling a bug) can be demonstrated to require a mental refocussing
> especially on large screens - so an argument could be made that Protel, by
> not re-centering after a pan (Home key) is better.
>
> No bug here.
>

I find it odd Ian that you like the way that Protel zooms in and out without
"centering about the cursor", like every other cad package I have ever seen,
and even defend it, but you went ahead and wrote a "server" to fix the
problem anyway, and then go on to say "no bug here"

Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed to the weird
behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and out, and actually like or prefer
it, but that doesn't make it "intuitive" or "natural".

For those that don't understand what I am talking about, it is what I call
the "anti-intuitive" manner in which Protel zooms in or out on an area near
the right or left border of the display area. For example: place your cursor
near the right border of your display area and zoom out (PgDn) three times,
and you will still find yourself right up against the right border of the
display area, although you will not see one single bit of real estate to the
right of your boarder, since it remains the same. Now zoom in (PgUp) 3
times, and you still never get past the original right border of the
display. If you want to zoom or pan anywhere to the right, then you to have
to place your cursom near the left side of the screen and then zoom out and
then place your cursor back to the right and zoom in. Thats why I call it
"anti-intuitive", you have to go left to get right, and it is simply not
something I have ever seen in any other CAD application. This is just poor
design, plain and simple.

Yes Ian, I could take my fingers off the PgUp and PgDn keys and my eyes off
of the screen to look for the Home key, but why do I have to take my eyes
off what I am doing and hit one extra key. Why can't Protel just be like the
rest of the world on this one.

You may like it, but it is "non-standard" to say the least.

Where again do I go to get the little drivers / servers you wrote to fix the
problem?

The real problem here Ian is that I shouldn't have to ask you for your
drivers / servers, Protel should fix the problem, or even considering that
you like it the way it is, they should offer the "standard" zoom in and out
for us abnormal folks who learned on everyone elses systems.

You may not condescend to calling it a bug, but it is unquestionably a
Protel "quirk".

Is this what happens when you write software applications "down under" when
everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot
answer your technical questions about the software?

>
> >3. ) I am also betting that Protel's "Print Dialogue" box is also still
> >backwards as compared to the rest of the world (For those that don't
> >consider the way that Protel handles printing a bug, go play with Adobe
> >Acrobat (or any other Windows Application) for a while then come back to
> >Protel to see how it it is not done right).
>
> You are not being clear here.  What do you see as the issue?  I can see
> differences between printing in all sorts of applications.  What exactly
do
> you not like in Protels Sch and PCB printing?
>

Protel has an OK butten in the same location in it's print dialog box as
every on else in the world has the PRINT buttom.

Hitting the OK button in Protel does not print anything, as one would think,
but performs the exact same function as everyone elses CANCEL button (has
anyone ever seen an OK button in a Print Dialog Box that does nothing but
dismiss the Dialogue Box?).

Protel has the PRINT button on the left in a NON-STANDARD POSITION.

Another Protel "quirk" - minimally it ignores the rest of the world - as I
stated originally, compare to Adobe Acrobat.

This actually is a productivity issue. I'll bet that I am not the only one
who thought he printed something and walked to the other end of the building
to get a print and found the tray empty.

Again, just do it like the rest of the world. it's a real pain to switch
between applications all day long and have to remember that one of them is
backwards because it was programmed upside down on the bottom of the world.

> >Also, show me one other major
> >application in the Windows world that has a Print Icon on a toolbar that
> >invokes a Printer Dialog Box that will not print anything at all, as the
one
> >in the PCB 3-D View (It only does printer setup).
>
> Minor issue.  We know that the 3D viewer, as it stands, is a premature,
> inadequate, bit of marketing fluff. Hardly worth commenting on it.
>

Minor issue!  then why couldn't you solve it for me when I posted to this
forum and said that I couldn't get the PRINT to work in 3D. Go look in the
archive.

Marketing fluff or not, the PRINT button in the dialog box that appears when
you click on the Printer Icon on the Toolbar DOES NOT WORK - PLAIN AND
SIMPLE - ITS HOSED - ITS A REAL BUG! I LOST A WHOLE DAY ON THIS ONE, AND
NOBODY IN THIS LIST COULD EVEN EXPLAIN THAT THE ONLY WAY TO GET IT TO PRINT
WAS FROM THE FILE MENU.

How many other people have had this problem and lost time on this one or
just given up on it?

Minor issue? It is a perfect example of how Protel software developers and
programmers cannot even be consistant within otherwise identical Print
Dialog Boxes within the same product.

THIS IS REAL EVIDENCE OF A REAL DESIGN PHILOSIPHY PROBLEM HERE, OR SHOULD I
SAY LACK OF DESIGN PHILOSIPHY.

>
> >4. ) I guess my one real question will be what have the done with
Schematic.
> >Will it still act like a bastard sibling that has been hastily patched
into
> >a system where it is totally foreign "function" wise, or have they
actually
> >taken the time to properly integrate it into the environment so that
things
> >like panning, zooming, and function keys, will work the same as within
the
> >other applications.
>
> Panning - home key works the same in both PCB and Sch.  Right-click drag
is
> not supported in P99SE Sch.  What is your complaint?
> Zooming - the same in both PCB and Sch.  What is your complaint?
> Function Keys - what would you like to be common across Sch and PCB?
>

While its your daytime, it's after one thirty in the morning here, and I am
working from memory here now, and while I could probably come up with at
least 20 major gripes on Schematic, the one that really bugs me is the
difference in the availability of items in the edit menus and the selection
menus, in that they were different and missing several things.

Lets just say that Schematic is so different that it is obviously not
developed by the same people, and obviously just pasted into "Client" to try
and complete the package.

I'll just be charitable and say that I hope they worked on the "integration"
of the Schematic product.

> JaMi, fess up, cobber - you were beta testing (just like I was).  Stop
> playing silly games.  You know exactly what has been fixed and what
hasn't.
>
> Ian Wilson
>

You know Ian, this is interesting. I really didnt read this last paragraph
closely the first time thru, before starting to respond to you.

No, I am not playing games. No, I really dont know what's been fixed and
what hasn't.

No, I really wasn't beta testing, although I figured you were.

This really is a bad sign, isn't it. What you're really telling me is that
these and many other things have not been fixed.

Thats just not what I really wanted to hear.

JaMi Smith

>
>
> ************************************************************************
> * Tracking #: 23394880BF62BE4A8F49C0017786060CD7C00131
> *
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