<clip>

> The real issue is that statements like:
> > No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly
> what I'm using
> > for a mouse.
> > I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000.
> gloss over the problem. The operative phrase is "(Not for me at
> least)", and
> that is a primary indication that could in fact be a Protel
> problem, simply
> by virtue of the fact that it is so inconsistant. (In reality, the very
> nature of the problem itself points the finger at Protel).

What!? You have examples of people that use the MS wheel mouse just fine
with P99SE.

Next, you state you GOT RID of your MS mouse and purchased a Logitech mouse
and all your problems went away and you STILL blame Protel? Man, I do not
understand your thinking...
It could be a Dell problem, who knows. Yeah it could be Protel's problem,
but the evidence would point in many other places.
(I bet you think OJ didn't do it either.)





> I would almost be willing to bet that if all of the Logitech
> Mouse users out
> there were to reinstall their operating systems fresh and not reinstall
> their "Mouseware", and scrounged another mouse with a wheel for a
> test (did
> not use the Logitech mouse) that 50% of them would find out that they have
> the problem.

I'd like to see that. If protel could get a grip on the problem maybe they
could fix it.

How about a poll?? EVERYONE ON THIS LIST THAT HAS THIS PROBLEM SHOULD EMAIL
THE LIST SO 'WE' CAN COUNT THEM.

I did a design on an audio card that worked in all PCI Macintosh computers
except for this one guy. We wanted to be pro-active and try and solve the
problem just in case it was the 'tip of the iceberg' sort of thing. The
customer agreed to ship his computer to us for evaluation and we could NOT
figure it out in a reasonable time ( under 1 week) We purchased another
similarly configured system and it worked on that one.

We probably could have found it with enough time, but it wasn't worth the
thousands of dollars the company was burning on it so we returned the
computer and issues the guy a full refund and some brownie points.
The problem YOU have may be hard for Protel to reproduce, period.



> While companies such as Microsoft do there best to see that
> different pieces
> of hardware from different suppliers all work the same in their Operating
> Systems, we all know that the simple truth of the matter is that
> they don't.
> Part of this is Microsoft, and part of this is the different manufacturers
> who write the different drivers for their own products.

I agree, but then again, look how many bugs are in MS code? TONS. Yes it's a
lot of code, but if you track driver updates, service packs, etc, you get
the idea of how many problems are lurking.


> I could accept some of the Microsoft Bashing and pointing the blame
> elsewhere if in fact Protel / Altium would specify a "Golden System" (a
> specific brand of hardware in a specific configuration) that
> their software
> was guarenteed to work perfectly with, but they haven't and apparently
> won't. I therefore maintain that Protel / Altium is responsible for making
> sure that there software will work properly with any relativey
> new "generic"
> hardware running "generic" installations of the Operating Systems software
> they "claim" Protel will "run on" (Windows 95, 98, 2000, and NT), using
> "generic" periferials (any somewhat "standard" mouse (as in Microsoft), or
> printer (as in HP)). We all demand this this for any other
> software we buy,
> why not Protel.

I wasn't MS bashing; I was saying it's not cut and dry Protel's fault.

I completely agree!!! They should specify 1 or more systems that would be
'perfect' for 99SE.
Shit, we spend $8000 on s/w, who cares what a system costs if it works
reliably.


> snip
>
>
> > > > >2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is
> still there
> snip
> >
> > I disagree completely. PADS PowerPCB does it the way you request and it
> > sucks. I keep having to find the area of interest because it jumped
> > somewhere on my screen. Yes, it's more or less in the center,
> but my eyes
> > weren't in the center before the jump so I have to focus in on it. That
> > isn't natural.
> >
> > I like the way Protel did it. It keeps the item in my original
> focus still
> > in focus after the zoom operation.
> >
>
> Funny that you mention your eyes and "original focus".
>
> In reality, you have to completely "re-focus" on the "new image" after a
> zoom in or out irregardless of where the cursor is. Sorry, I wont buy this
> one.

No I don't have to "re-focus." When I'm looking at something, somewhere on
my screen, I put the cursor THERE and press PageUP. Guess what? It zoomed in
exactly where my eyes were positioned, and I do not have to refocus or hunt
for position. BTW, there is no such word as irregardless. It is
"regardless."




> Most people "look around" at different points of an image such as that
> presented by the Protel display screen. and in fact usually zoom in or out
> so that they can observe either more of a certain portion of that
> image, or
> view a certain portion closer and in more detail.
>
> Forgive me. I believe your arguement is simply not realistic.
>
> I believe that your only valid arguement would be personal preferences.
> Personal preferences will vary from user to user. Personal
> preferences will
> also sometimes change within as short a time as a few days or
> weeks when the
> same user gets a new toy to play with, such as a  new version of the same
> software that might implement something differently. All said and done,
> Protel is still the odd man out in the industry.
>
> Why? I am beginning to boil it down to either one of two posibilities.
> Protel software programmers and developers either don't know what the rest
> of the world has been doing for the past 25 years, or they simply "don't
> care" and are going to do it their way anyway.

And (I hate this phrase) 'thinking outside the box' is a bad thing? We
wouldn't have many features in P99 if Protel software programmers and
developers did it like "the rest of the world."


> snip
>
> > Use the home key...it's 1 cm away from the page up key. I would think by
> now
> > you could find it without looking for it. If you dont like that,
> > right-mouse-button drag the screen.
> >
>
> Why do I have to hit one more key?

Why do I have to look around the screen needlessly?




> I am not as keyboard proficient as many other people out there are, and I
> usually have to "look" at the keyboard to find the Home key (which is
> actually almost 4 cm away (center to centrer)), and then "look"
> again to put
> my fingers back on the PgUp and PgDn keys to continue zooming in or out.

The MS Natural keyboard has them right near each other. The END key is right
there too for quick redraws.




> Thats the problem! Talk about loosing your "original focus" and
> then having
> to re-aquire it again! I believe your arguement regarding keeping
> things "in
> focus" (as it were) actually works in favor of having the zoomed image
> "center" about the cursor after a zoom, just like the rest of the
> world does
> it, rather than looking for and pressing another key.

I don't need to look away to press the keys.





> Again:
> > > You may like it, but it is "non-standard" to say the least.
>
> Respecting "right mouse click", it would be great if that would
> work, but it
> doesn't work as a "nested operation" in all cases (you have to
> stop what you
> were doing and then "re-aquire" whatever you were doing after the "pan",
> which is even worse than having to perfoem an extra keystroke
> with the Home
> key, and additionally it "drops" you out of some functions just as if you
> hit the Escape key.
>
> Consistancy. Consistancy. Consistancy. Is that too much to ask for?
> Apparently so.
>
> snip
>
> >
> > Can MS answer your technical questions when they are awake? I don't see
> much
> > difference there. :)
> >
>
> See  above regarding the Microsoft Development Network.
>
> snip
>
> > > > >3. ) I am also betting that Protel's "Print Dialogue" box is also
> still
> > > > >backwards as compared to the rest of the world . . .
> > > > >
>
> snip
>
>
> > Wrong. If you read the dialog that is invoked, it's called "Schematic
> > Printer Setup" Since printing is more complex in Protel than it is for
> many
> > other apps, they put you in the setup before launching a zillon
> pages that
> > you didn't want. The OK simply allows you to save the printing
> > configuration. It doesn't do what everybody else's cancel button does. A
> > cancel button should do exactly what it says: Cancel. It should
> not allow
> > any dialog boxes to retain edits after the cancel is invoked.
> >
> >
> > > Protel has the PRINT button on the left in a NON-STANDARD POSITION.
> >
> > So what?
> >
>
> You have totally lost me here on this one, what has "Schematic" got to do
> with anything.
>
> My arguement is that Protel is not consistant with the rest of the world,
> and worse than that, it is not even consistant within itself.
>
> Call me a "stupid user" - this is minimally a productivity issue when
> switching between different applications.
>
> Again, is it that Protel just doesn't know that the rest of the world is
> different or is it that that they just don't care.
>
> The more I think about it I am beginning to conclude that it is
> the latter,
> and if not that, then they are simply not paying attention to the world
> around them.
>
> snip

I just mentioned SCH because I wanted to refer to 'something'. So I pressed
the print icon while working on a schematic. (and proceeded with my text)

Yes, I would like to see more consistency too, but only when it doesn't
detract from functionality.


> > > This really is a bad sign, isn't it. What you're really telling me is
> that
> > > these and many other things have not been fixed.
> >
> > He didn't tell you anything about what's been fixed or not because it
> would
> > probably be in violation of the NDA.
> >
>
> I wasn't talking about any NDA, but I kinda thought that his "tone" spoke
> volumes, just as if he was saying that I had actually been a beta
> tester and
> already actually knew that none of these things had been fixed. In short,
> accusing me of already knowing nothing had changed.

Yes, you're right; sometimes a person's tone does speak volume, but I tend
to be tone deaf when it comes to email. You certainly bring forward good
points for discussion. It allows everyone to speak up or shut up (either
way) about a certain issue. If one or more of those issues becomes a hot
spot for us, we can bring that to Protel for more serious consideration.

Take it easy,
Tony




>
> JaMi Smith
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ************************************************************************
> * Tracking #: 29C1FFBEE024A949BC32C8C7C7ABF6391D30B9C1
> *
> ************************************************************************
>
>

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