> -----Original Message-----
> From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 1:37 AM
> To: Protel EDA Forum
> Cc: JaMi Smith
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
> OK Ian, I will elaborate . . .
> > On 07:22 PM 22/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said:
> > >Speaking of Protel Bugs . . .
> > >
> > >What are the odds on whether your favorite Bug has been fixed in DXP?
> > >
> > >1. ) I am betting that the Keyboard / Mouse problem that has been there
> > >since Protel 98 has not been fixed.
> > What problem?
> Protel 99 SE is at a minimum very instable with Microsoft Mouse Drivers,
> especially with Microsoft Intellimosue software and a "wheel mouse". This
> bug has been acknowledged in the "knowledge base" as far back as
> Protel 98,
> where the reccommended correction has for years been "install the original
> mouse driver" (which is some trick since all Microsoft Operating Systems
> have been shipping with Intellimouse software for several years now).
No it's not unstable. (Not for me at least) That is exactly what I'm using
for a mouse.
I'm using whatever driver that came with Win2000.
You're referring to a driver that was around in 1998. Have you tried using a
> The Problem specifically is that the use of the wheel at a
> minimum disables
> all keyboard shortcuts such as PT for Place Track, and can even
> go so far as
> disabling the PgUp (zoom in) and PgDn (zoom out) type functions in some
> cases, and is one of the major causes of Instability and Crashes on many
> different types of Machines.
> Many Protel Users are unaware of the problems for several reasons: Some,
> since they do not use the keyboard shortcuts but always go to the pulldown
> menus, they don't even know that there is a problem other than
> Protel seems
> to crash alot. Some purchase systems complete with the latest Microsoft
> Operating Systems custom tailored and installed from companies
> such as IBM,
> DELL, Compac, etc., which have sightly different or slightly modified
> "Intellimouse" software that doesn't have the problem. Still others are
> lucky enough to have a Logitech Mouse with Logitech Mouseware,
> which is the
> best known solution to the problem. If they are using a system with a
> Logitech Mouse and software they may have never heard of or ever seen the
> effects of the problem.
I'm unaware of the problem for none of those reasons. So you admit:
...sightly different or slightly modified
"Intellimouse" software that doesn't have the problem... and still proceed
to blame Protel?? That's a pretty lame position and a poor use of logic.
Surely you can attribute some of the blame on MS mouse driver writers?
> The real problem is that Protel has not addressed the problem for several
> releases of the software (with several service packs for each
> release), and
> yet it is at the minimum probably one of the largest contributors to
> instability and crashes on numerous systems. I would think that
> Protel would
> want to resolve this issue, since I think it would do wonders for the
> stability of the product.
P99SE is very stable for me and many others when used on WinNT or Win2000.
> While many people in this list have at one time or another discounted this
> problem as ranging from simply not having the right driver installed, to
> having the wrong video card, to having a flakey machine or flakey
> installation of their operating system, all the way down to the problem
> being a figment of someones imagination, and even down to your response of
> "What problem?", the problem is real.
> I actually look at this specific problem and it's continued
> presence in the
> Protel product as a measure of the competence of the Protel software
> developers and programmers, and believe that it has a direct bearing on
> their understanding of Microsoft Operating Systems and Applications
> Software, and specifically the Microsoft SDK. I find it very
> "telling" that
> the developers of a product such as Protel which is specifically designed
> for Windows Operating Systems (at least in its current
> incarnation), seem to
> have so much trouble interfacing with an internationally standard mouse
I find it telling that my Intel USB camera REBOOTS my system when I'm
running WinXP pro, but if I boot the SAME HARDWARE with Win2000, the camera
is fine. I didn't do any tricky setup for either. I let the OS find the
camera and install drivers. Why can't two multi billion dollar companies get
a goddamn camera to work?? Did MS forget that Intel makes USB cameras?
Didn't they test it? Maybe they did and it worked for them, but it doesn't
work for me. (sounds familar huh?)
> I am sorry, but I simply cannot accept some small company like Protel /
> Altium in Australia pointing the finger at Microsoft and saying it's their
> problem, or worse yet, saying that it is not a problem at all as
> I was told
> by Protel Sales and Technical Support people who said it would
> not be fixed
> until the next software release. WELL THIS IS THE NEXT SOFTWARE
> RELEASE - IS
> IT FIXED?
> Ian - This is a REAL bug, and it really does affect alot of installations
> out there in the way of crashes.
> Please don't make excuses for Protel on this one, it really does
> need to be
> > >2. ) I am also betting that the anti-intuitave panning is still there
> > >Ian, I know that you like it, and I know that you wrote a routine to fx
> > >but it still is backwards and unlike no other system in the world).
> > I'm getting a little tired of this one - *you* may think it is wrong,
> > others don't. Why do you insist on implying that others are wrong? I
> > you could respect others opinions a little by phrasing your
> complaint not
> > as a bug (which it clearly isn't) but as merely your preference.
> > Re-centering after a zoom (which is your preference, the lack
> of which you
> > are calling a bug) can be demonstrated to require a mental refocussing
> > especially on large screens - so an argument could be made that
> Protel, by
> > not re-centering after a pan (Home key) is better.
> > No bug here.
> I find it odd Ian that you like the way that Protel zooms in and
> out without
> "centering about the cursor", like every other cad package I have
> ever seen,
> and even defend it, but you went ahead and wrote a "server" to fix the
> problem anyway, and then go on to say "no bug here"
> Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed
> to the weird
> behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and out, and actually like or prefer
> it, but that doesn't make it "intuitive" or "natural".
I disagree completely. PADS PowerPCB does it the way you request and it
sucks. I keep having to find the area of interest because it jumped
somewhere on my screen. Yes, it's more or less in the center, but my eyes
weren't in the center before the jump so I have to focus in on it. That
I like the way Protel did it. It keeps the item in my original focus still
in focus after the zoom operation.
> For those that don't understand what I am talking about, it is what I call
> the "anti-intuitive" manner in which Protel zooms in or out on an
> area near
> the right or left border of the display area. For example: place
> your cursor
> near the right border of your display area and zoom out (PgDn)
> three times,
> and you will still find yourself right up against the right border of the
> display area, although you will not see one single bit of real
> estate to the
> right of your boarder, since it remains the same. Now zoom in (PgUp) 3
> times, and you still never get past the original right border of the
> display. If you want to zoom or pan anywhere to the right, then
> you to have
> to place your cursom near the left side of the screen and then
> zoom out and
> then place your cursor back to the right and zoom in. Thats why I call it
> "anti-intuitive", you have to go left to get right, and it is simply not
> something I have ever seen in any other CAD application. This is just poor
> design, plain and simple.
> Yes Ian, I could take my fingers off the PgUp and PgDn keys and
> my eyes off
> of the screen to look for the Home key, but why do I have to take my eyes
> off what I am doing and hit one extra key. Why can't Protel just
> be like the
> rest of the world on this one.
Use the home key...it's 1 cm away from the page up key. I would think by now
you could find it without looking for it. If you dont like that,
right-mouse-button drag the screen.
> You may like it, but it is "non-standard" to say the least.
> Where again do I go to get the little drivers / servers you wrote
> to fix the
> The real problem here Ian is that I shouldn't have to ask you for your
> drivers / servers, Protel should fix the problem, or even considering that
> you like it the way it is, they should offer the "standard" zoom
> in and out
> for us abnormal folks who learned on everyone elses systems.
> You may not condescend to calling it a bug, but it is unquestionably a
> Protel "quirk".
> Is this what happens when you write software applications "down
> under" when
> everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot
> answer your technical questions about the software?
Can MS answer your technical questions when they are awake? I don't see much
difference there. :)
> > >3. ) I am also betting that Protel's "Print Dialogue" box is also still
> > >backwards as compared to the rest of the world (For those that don't
> > >consider the way that Protel handles printing a bug, go play with Adobe
> > >Acrobat (or any other Windows Application) for a while then
> come back to
> > >Protel to see how it it is not done right).
> > You are not being clear here. What do you see as the issue? I can see
> > differences between printing in all sorts of applications. What exactly
> > you not like in Protels Sch and PCB printing?
> Protel has an OK butten in the same location in it's print dialog box as
> every on else in the world has the PRINT buttom.
> Hitting the OK button in Protel does not print anything, as one
> would think,
> but performs the exact same function as everyone elses CANCEL button (has
> anyone ever seen an OK button in a Print Dialog Box that does nothing but
> dismiss the Dialogue Box?).
Wrong. If you read the dialog that is invoked, it's called "Schematic
Printer Setup" Since printing is more complex in Protel than it is for many
other apps, they put you in the setup before launching a zillon pages that
you didn't want. The OK simply allows you to save the printing
configuration. It doesn't do what everybody else's cancel button does. A
cancel button should do exactly what it says: Cancel. It should not allow
any dialog boxes to retain edits after the cancel is invoked.
> Protel has the PRINT button on the left in a NON-STANDARD POSITION.
> Another Protel "quirk" - minimally it ignores the rest of the world - as I
> stated originally, compare to Adobe Acrobat.
> This actually is a productivity issue. I'll bet that I am not the only one
> who thought he printed something and walked to the other end of
> the building
> to get a print and found the tray empty.
> Again, just do it like the rest of the world. it's a real pain to switch
> between applications all day long and have to remember that one of them is
> backwards because it was programmed upside down on the bottom of
> the world.
> > >Also, show me one other major
> > >application in the Windows world that has a Print Icon on a
> toolbar that
> > >invokes a Printer Dialog Box that will not print anything at
> all, as the
> > >in the PCB 3-D View (It only does printer setup).
> > Minor issue. We know that the 3D viewer, as it stands, is a premature,
> > inadequate, bit of marketing fluff. Hardly worth commenting on it.
> Minor issue! then why couldn't you solve it for me when I posted to this
> forum and said that I couldn't get the PRINT to work in 3D. Go look in the
> Marketing fluff or not, the PRINT button in the dialog box that
> appears when
> you click on the Printer Icon on the Toolbar DOES NOT WORK - PLAIN AND
> SIMPLE - ITS HOSED - ITS A REAL BUG! I LOST A WHOLE DAY ON THIS ONE, AND
> NOBODY IN THIS LIST COULD EVEN EXPLAIN THAT THE ONLY WAY TO GET
> IT TO PRINT
> WAS FROM THE FILE MENU.
You are absolutely right. They should fix it, but since they haven't touched
3D since its introduction, we at least know why this bug persists.
> How many other people have had this problem and lost time on this one or
> just given up on it?
Since the 3D sucks, I don't use it and haven't lost time on this one. I hope
that changes in DXP.
> Minor issue? It is a perfect example of how Protel software developers and
> programmers cannot even be consistant within otherwise identical Print
> Dialog Boxes within the same product.
> THIS IS REAL EVIDENCE OF A REAL DESIGN PHILOSIPHY PROBLEM HERE,
> OR SHOULD I
> SAY LACK OF DESIGN PHILOSIPHY.
> > >4. ) I guess my one real question will be what have the done with
> > >Will it still act like a bastard sibling that has been hastily patched
> > >a system where it is totally foreign "function" wise, or have they
> > >taken the time to properly integrate it into the environment so that
> > >like panning, zooming, and function keys, will work the same as within
> > >other applications.
> > Panning - home key works the same in both PCB and Sch. Right-click drag
> > not supported in P99SE Sch. What is your complaint?
> > Zooming - the same in both PCB and Sch. What is your complaint?
> > Function Keys - what would you like to be common across Sch and PCB?
> While its your daytime, it's after one thirty in the morning
> here, and I am
> working from memory here now, and while I could probably come up with at
> least 20 major gripes on Schematic, the one that really bugs me is the
> difference in the availability of items in the edit menus and the
> menus, in that they were different and missing several things.
> Lets just say that Schematic is so different that it is obviously not
> developed by the same people, and obviously just pasted into
> "Client" to try
> and complete the package.
> I'll just be charitable and say that I hope they worked on the
> of the Schematic product.
> > JaMi, fess up, cobber - you were beta testing (just like I was). Stop
> > playing silly games. You know exactly what has been fixed and what
> > Ian Wilson
> You know Ian, this is interesting. I really didnt read this last paragraph
> closely the first time thru, before starting to respond to you.
> No, I am not playing games. No, I really dont know what's been fixed and
> what hasn't.
> No, I really wasn't beta testing, although I figured you were.
> This really is a bad sign, isn't it. What you're really telling me is that
> these and many other things have not been fixed.
He didn't tell you anything about what's been fixed or not because it would
probably be in violation of the NDA.
> Thats just not what I really wanted to hear.
You didn't hear anything from anybody.
> JaMi Smith
> > ************************************************************************
> > * Tracking #: 23394880BF62BE4A8F49C0017786060CD7C00131
> > *
> > ************************************************************************
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