Ian,

well said. People have tried to hint before that it has gone over the top.

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 6:51 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs. - Flame start!


On 11:24 PM 31/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [PEDA] Speaking of Protel Bugs.
>
>
> > As others have told you, there are reasons some programs misbehave when
>they
> > are not the root cause.
>
>You really havn't understood all of the posts to this thread, have you?


I've had enough of your rudeness.

A lot of people have been trying to be constructive in the face of what is 
simply rudeness.  I firmly think you should go back over the emails you 
have sent over the last few weeks and the replies. This is especially 
galling as some of us have gone out of our way to assist you and you simply 
throw back flack.

I have not been responding to the goading you have been attempting.  It is 
beneath me.

I have admitted that I made a mistake in thinking you were beta testing 
DXP.  Your were not.  I was wrong, I said so.  I am not sure you on going 
attitide is related to that but if it is please lets move on.

However, your insistence that you are right in some matters that are, 
frankly, a matter of opinion, is simply foolish and damaging to your 
standing.  You seem to want to call all aspects of Protel that do not 
conform to "your way" as bugs.

Witness:
1) You have a preference for the PgUp and PgDn zoom actions to re-centre 
the screen.  You call this a bug.  Others prefer it.  Others are told they 
are wrong.  You make a claim the *my* server, that I wrote to calm your 
original onslaught on joining this forum some time ago, was an admission by 
me that it is a bug. And then you denigrate my denial that it is anything 
of the sort. I did you a favour, OK pal.  I spent my time, doing something 
for you (yep just for you), to show you it could be done and to help you 
out. (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:32:34 -0700)
2) You have a problem with a mouse and key shortcuts.  This is in fact a 
known bug in Protel but the solution is related to bugs in the mouse driver 
that you were supplied with your computer.  Known driver bugs.  Known 
solution.  Yet you harp on this endlessly.  Others attempt to explain this 
in a calm manner.  You SHOUT at them. (Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:21 -0700)
3) You call the formatting in Protels P&P format a bug.  Others are able to 
use the P&P format but you can't, so it is a bug. Sure, you have to 
structure you library correctly.  Bug exactly what is a bug.  (Are 
right-hand drive vehicles buggy, BTW?)
4) You made a statement that implied you were surprised when someone came 
back with a contrary view to yours some time later.  You had taken their 
previous silence as you having convinced them (rather than the more likely 
case of you having simply annoyed them). (Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:18:43 -0700)
5) You repeat statements in a fashion only likely to raise tempers, and do 
nothing for sensible discussion (Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:51:38 -0700)
6) You confuse motives, and then argue over the denials. (Tue, 30 Jul 2002 
10:44:46 -0700).  This gives me the appearance of arrogance, maybe you do 
not wish to convey that.
7) You are very ready to get personal. (Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:40:59 
-0700).  What is especially galling about this is that the subject at the 
time, that you attempted to confuse (deliberately or not) are not 
related.  The auto-pan bug  in Protel is not related to the manner in which 
PgUp and PgDn zoom operates.
8) You confuse missing features with bugs in the program and then proceed 
to add snipe comments within your email (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:23:08 -0700)

I think, you need to:
a) learn to separate bugs from other failings
b) stop being rude and arrogant
c) start discussing things in a sane fashion

Other issues:
1) referring to DXP you stated "Realistically, it will almost surely be 
released prior to October 1st, whether it is ready or not, so as to comply 
with the "promises" made to all those who bought into ATS, so that they 
will sign up for yet another year." (Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:40:44 -0700).  I 
do not recall seeing a public admission that you were wrong by three 
quarters of a year.
2) In contrast to some of your recent statements (re: Protel on a new Dell 
computer with new mouse etc), you have previously stated "To give credit 
where credit is due, the "undocumented feature" dates back far beyond 
Microsoft and Bill Gates to at least the early days of IBM." (Thu, 11 Apr 
2002 15:31:10 -0700) The quote goes on...and the context here is not as 
simple as this brief quote suggests.  Point is, you have recognised that 
software is not perfect, yet in some recent claims you have suggested that 
your new Dell with your new mouse was not the source of the problems you 
were having.  There is a subtle conflict in these concepts.  (Now don't get 
confused here with the point I am making, I think Protel does have a bug in 
how it handles the mouse - the mouse should never hose the key shortcuts.)
3) You have previously reported problems with Adobe Acrobat (Wed, 27 Mar 
2002 15:52:45 -0800) but have recently been using it as an example of how 
printing should work in Protel.

That is enough history for now.

What is my purpose in spending my time doing this?  I value the forum.  I 
dislike instances where one party of the other is not reading very 
carefully the answers others are giving.  Bullying is not attractive and is 
the sort of thing that will cause others to leave the forum.  I think that 
you will find others replies to you have generally been quite calm and 
reasoned.  Are you confident that your participation is constructive or 
destructive?

Your manner is offensive, and you are out of order, sport.  Back off, calm 
down and you will get a better reception.

I will put it to the group.  Who has played the more constructive role in 
the forum over the past years.  Who would you most like to shut-up?

As far as calling bugs-bugs I suggest you need to go back over the archives 
and see who is calling what what.  One of your favorites has been accused 
many more time than I of being an Altium sop.

Now for any others about to chime in - please read this carefully.  I 
consider Protel to have many bugs.  I started and maintain the users Protel 
bug list.  If a bug is identified I will be happy to add it to the list and 
if you look through it you will see I have reported and validated a number 
of them. My record is clear. I will *not* accept someone else shouting and 
ranting at me and others as a valid form of discourse for this forum.  Do 
not make the mistake of every thinking I go soft on Protel or 
Altium.  Maybe I have a calmer, hopefully more thoughtful, manner of 
dealing with these things.

I am not sure, but it seems possible to me that you consider an 
argument/discussion won when others shut up.  In my case this may not be 
the case.

Finger hovering over the JaMi block...

Ian

PS. I have just completed over 100 hours of Sch, SPICE, PCB work in Protel 
without shutting down or having a crash.  My machine is old and slow.


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