Chuck, Kevin and I are using our beta versions of MPowered. The only full release right now is for HD.
Bryan -----Original Message----- From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptacc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Reichel Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 1:21 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: LogicRE: Update Summer 2010 PT 8.04 on HD only? Logic click also. Hi Kevin, Long time no speak! What version of PT are you running? I have the HD3 with PT 8.04 I thought that was the only one working now? By the way to turn off click in logic hit the letter c either in play back or recording. Talk soon Chuck Reichel 954-742-0019 www.SoundPictureRecording.com On Jul 1, 2010, at 12:19 PM, Kevin Reeves wrote: > Hey Ginny. If you want a live demo of Pro Tools, come on downtown. > Briley and I can definitely show you the ropes if you want. Hit me > back off list, and we'll make it happen. > On Jun 30, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Ginny Owens wrote: > >> Absolutely. I only meant to point out that some of the most basic >> features in Logic are surprisingly inaccessible. Please, ProTools, >> come quickly. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptacc...@googlegroups.com] >> On Behalf >> Of Bryan Smart >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:08 AM >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: LogicRE: Update Summer 2010 >> >> This is probably a thread for VIMac-Audio or MIDI-Mag, but, in short, >> those settings aren't in preferences. I'll have to go back to look, >> but they're either in the main or mix windows, similar to GB. >> >> Bryan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptacc...@googlegroups.com] >> On Behalf >> Of Ginny Owens >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:23 AM >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com >> Subject: LogicRE: Update Summer 2010 >> >> Bryan, >> Speaking of "small parts" of programs where lack of accessibility is >> maddening, have you by any chance found a way to turn off the click >> during recording in Logic and to manually set the overall tempo? I'm >> using a control surface to overdub multiple tracks of audio, which is >> working fine. >> But I can only seem to shut the click up during playback, and since I >> can't set the tempo, well...it's maddening. Lol. >> >> I'm going to try searching through recording settings again, but any >> thoughts would be welcome. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptacc...@googlegroups.com] >> On Behalf >> Of Bryan Smart >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:08 AM >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Update Summer 2010 >> >> Slau already wrote you a great reply. However, I'd like to remind >> you, when it comes to Logic, that Apple purchased that program from >> EMagic. >> They >> didn't write it in-house. Beyond that, Logic has been around since >> well before Cocoa. It was a Carbon app first, and ran on the classic >> Mac OS before that. Such programs are bears to reorganize without >> breaking everything. And, in the case of Logic, on the whole, it is >> actually extremely accessible. So is GarageBand, for that matter. The >> infuriating thing about those apps is that the tiny parts that aren't >> accessible are profoundly crucial. For example, I can work almost >> everything in GB, all the way down to editing effect and synth >> presets in their native user interfaces. However, I can't select any >> recorded data, so can't edit. No editing pretty much rules out GB for >> anything serious. In Logic, I have a similarly high level of access, >> but can't access the part of the interface where the mixing console >> is displayed. >> >> Cocoa does mostly work out of the box. When problems appear, it is >> usually that controls aren't labeled, but VoiceOver can see them, at >> least. >> If you >> figure out the purpose of a control, either through trial and error, >> or if a sighted person tells you, it is possible to label the control >> with a VO hotkey. In the inaccessible places of programs, like Logic, >> those aren't even using Cocoa controls. There aren't as many >> situations on the Mac where developers avoid using a standardized >> toolkit like Cocoa for appearance considerations, as is common on >> Windows. Cocoa applications can replace the look and feel of a >> standard Cocoa control (like a button), while retaining all of the >> built-in functionality. On Windows, if you want a button that has >> custom 3D effects when you press it, so to make your software >> synthesizer look like a real synth, your only choice is to reinvent >> the wheel. >> With >> Cocoa, you can replace just the part of the button that handles how >> it is drawn. No developer wants to reinvent the wheel if it isn't >> necessary, so most of them use Cocoa, and tweak it for their needs. A >> developer making their own custom button, like above, might draw the >> label on the button. In that case, they might skip setting the title >> attribute on the button, so VO wouldn't be able to tell you the name >> of the button. It still could, however, tell you that there is a >> button, and it can press it. No problem, though. You can set a custom >> label for that button, or, if someone has already set such a label, >> they can share it with you. >> >> >> >> Bryan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptacc...@googlegroups.com] >> On Behalf >> Of Scott Chesworth >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:41 AM >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Update Summer 2010 >> >> Hey Brian, >> >> Sure, I know enough to understand why the accessibility wasn't >> present in OS X for so long, and can certainly appreciate that with >> an app as vast as PT with the client base it has, an interface >> rewrite is a huge undertaking that would have to roll out gradually. >> I suppose the concern stems from hearing that the guy Avid hired >> initially worked on accessibility specifically for a period. What >> that makes me wonder is, was he manually exposing areas of the UI >> that were still Carbon-based for us so that we'd have the key >> components of the app available, or was he going through and playing >> catch up with the parts of the UI that other coders had already >> rewritten in Cocoa. >> If it's >> the former then I'm likely worrying over nothing, but if it's the >> latter, and this chap who was a temp at Avid was the only person who >> had a firm grasp of Apple's accessibility documentation, then surely >> the process would need to be repeated and accessibility will appear >> in chunks at that point rather than happening automagically as Avid >> update their UI. I'm not a developer by any stretch of the >> imagination, so I don't know how accurate Apple's whole "Cocoa just >> works with VO out of the box" line really is, but I'd feel a lot more >> confident about the future if every Cocoa-based app I'd ever >> downloaded worked like a charm (which it hasn't), or even if Apple's >> own product line was playing ball by now (which it isn't). >> >> I dunno, perhaps I'm hypersensitive and overanalysing because I had >> some momentum and something that appeared to be a career developing >> last time around. It gradually had to grind to a halt because lugging >> around my own outdated gear and dumping it in the midst of every >> session wasn't always an option. I don't want to be in that situation >> all over again man. >> >> Scott >> >> On 6/30/10, Bryan Smart <bryansm...@bryansmart.com> wrote: >>> I don't think that you need to worry. >>> >>> I'm not sure how much of all the future plans and such are supposed >>> to be discussed on this list, but Avid is involved in a long term >>> plan to update their user interface. Part of the accessibility >>> problem was that the interface was created using Carbon, and was >>> originally created early on in OS X days, before there even were the >>> accessibility features for Carbon, and certainly way before Cocoa >>> was available. They're updating their interface for lots of reasons >>> that don't even have to do with accessibility. As the interface is >>> modernized, VO users naturally receive many benefits. As they go >>> forward, there will be less and less of a need for them to do >>> anything >> special for VO users. >>> >>> Bryan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptacc...@googlegroups.com] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Scott Chesworth >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 4:20 AM >>> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: Re: Update Summer 2010 >>> >>> The word "feature" and "accessibility" in the same sentence always >>> makes me uneasy. No, I wouldn't expect Avid to have a VO guru on >>> hand to figure out the most efficient workflow for me to get >>> something done, just like I don't expect every support techie to >>> have the knowledge to instantly switch off the "drag and drop" >>> terminology in his script every time I call Apple, but if a task >>> isn't achievable via the keyboard or isn't achievable with VO due to >>> elements not being exposed or being incorrectly defined etc, surely >>> it's not unreasonable to expect acknowledgement and response to >>> that. In most cases it would after all, be an issue that could be >>> fixed with no specialist knowledge of anything more than Apple's >>> developer guidelines. I suppose what I'm getting at is this. VO >>> support not being publicly stated (even the current partial VO >>> support puts them ahead of the game compared to Apple >>> themselves) makes me uneasy that we're not going to be publicly >>> acknowledged as a userbase either. So, if that's the case, what >>> happens about new features or interface tweaks from here on in? As I >>> said, I totally agree that Avid implementing Apple's accessibility >>> guidelines is the most that we could expect from them, and I am >>> grateful for what's been implemented so far, but consistency is key >>> to this being a viable product for VO users to be able to rely upon >>> it professionally. I have to wonder whether implementing those >>> guidelines and ensuring that new features aren't going to be totally >>> beyond users of accessibility will be considered as part of the >>> development cycle, or whether the best we can expect is playing >>> catch up every few years. >>> >>> I'm not intending to knock Avid. It's just this whole notion of >>> accessibility as a feature really, really bugs me. >>> >>> On 6/30/10, Slau Halatyn <slauhala...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I'm preparing an update for the web site at ProToolsPetition.org. >>>> For >>>> what it's worth, I'll post it here first because it probably won't >>>> post to the web site for another day or two. >>>> >>>> Update Summer 2010 >>>> >>>> It seems that the fruits of many people's labor are finally >>>> beginning to show. After years of interfacing with Digidesign, now >>>> known as Avid Technologies, we're seeing the results of our efforts >>>> to gain access to Pro Tools. Changes to the code base of Pro Tools >>>> that make it easier to navigate the user interface with VoiceOver >>>> in OS X were implemented in version 8.0.4. >>>> In early June, the HD version was released with the LE and M- >>>> Powered versions to follow soon. >>>> >>>> While there was a great amount of work done to help make Pro Tools >>>> useable with VoiceOver, it is by no means a completed project but >>>> rather a work in progress. While major aspects of the application >>>> are accessible, there remains some areas that will need to be >>>> addressed in future versions. We always knew that the issue of >>>> accessibility to Pro Tools would need a long-term solution. We hope >>>> to see improvements to be rolled out over several releases in the >>>> coming years. >>>> >>>> Although Avid Technologies has made changes to Pro Tools to >>>> specifically work better with VoiceOver, it has no plans to >>>> announce it as an official feature, per se. Regarding it as a >>>> feature would imply thorough testing and full customer support from >>>> the perspective of usability with VoiceOver. >>>> Naturally, one wouldn't expect Avid to troubleshoot issues >>>> regarding accessibility and the use of a screen reader. >>>> Essentially, what Avid has done is they've begun to label UI >>>> elements according to Apple's programming guidelines. The rest of >>>> the user experience has more to do with how VoiceOver works and >>>> best practices as blind users of the operating system and >>>> application software. >>>> >>>> Again, since this project is still a work in progress, it's still >>>> somewhat experimental as we discover what works and what doesn't. >>>> Although Pro Tools is not yet 100% accessible in all of it's areas, >>>> I'm glad that the work done thus far was included in the 8.0.4 >>>> release. It will allow blind users to begin learning the Pro Tools >>>> environment and workflow with plenty of features to explore and >>>> master. In the mean time, Avid is aware of the PTAccess email list >>>> at GoogleGroups.com and will direct any inquiries from blind users >>>> to the growing community of users in the group. Any issues of >>>> accessibility can be discussed there and any bugs or feature >>>> requests will be aggregated for future submission to Avid. >>>> >>>> I'll continue to post any major updates here but for the latest >>>> information go to http://www.googlegroups.com/group/ptaccess >>>> >>>> Slau Halatyn >>> >> > Chuck Reichel 954-742-0019 www.SoundPictureRecording.com
