Hi Elena,
I'm not sure I understand what kind of export you are referring to and
how Adam Turner is involved in this.
*A "wiki WG":*
This mailing list is basically the group of people maintaining the
Python Wiki and we've been doing this for many many years. So
discussions about the wiki should happen here.
*My role in all this:*
Ever since the wiki attack happened in 2013
(https://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiAttack2013) I have been taking care of
the server running the python.org wikis. Ee is the one managing the
infrastructure, but I have been putting work into the customization and
scripting needed to keep the moin installation running over the years.
*Issues with the wiki software:*
The issues we've had are most likely due to the scale of the operation.
The Python Wiki is AFAIK one of the largest installation of moin worldwide.
Now, people bring up the topic of the wiki being outdated, misleading,
having old information, etc. etc. every now and then, so this is not
new. The way to change the situation is not to switch off the resource,
though, or to change the underlying software, it's getting people
interested in helping to maintain, curate and update the information
that's there.
The content of the wiki is what's important, not the software that makes
it available.
*Moving to a new version of moin:*
As mentioned before, there is a group of people working on a new moin2
version and the plan is to switch to that new version once it's stable
enough.
Other wiki systems are usually not capable of dealing with the scale we
need or don't provide the necessary permission management for our
content. We are running three different wikis on the same platform: the
wiki.python.org, the Jython wiki and the PSF wiki, which has a lot of
internal PSF information.
Running Mediawiki at scale would not be an option either, since this
would require much more sysadmin work than any of us would be willing to
spend on this.
*Regarding listing user groups:*
The wiki already has a pretty comprehensive list of user groups around
the world: https://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups
It also provides a comprehensive list of conferences:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonConferences
The key benefit of using a wiki for all this, is to make it easy for
community members to edit the content. The barrier for getting editing
permissions is very low, very much unlike getting permissions to edit
www.python.org. The number of (active) editors of www.python.org is far
lower than what we have for the wiki - and it shows, if you look around
on the website.
This is why we are keen on keeping this information resource up and running.
The best help you could provide is to encourage users to become editors
of the wiki, to help improve the content and add to it.
*Replacement for Meetup:*
While it would be nice to have a better alternative to Meetup, which
charges a lot of money for a poorly managed website and even worse
support, the key benefit of Meetup is hard to beat: discoverability of
events by people who are not deep into the Python community resources.
I have been running the Python events calendars
(https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar) for many many years
to improve discoverability of Python events, but even though, things are
slowly improving, the calendars are still not well known within the
Python community.
Many people have never visited the "Events" section on python.org, which
published the calendars.
The user group I run with a friend in Düsseldorf, we had been trying to
get away with just sending out announcements for meetings, but we only
gathered more members after we finally decided to go with Meetup... and
pay EUR 200 per year for their poor service :-(
The wiki is not going to change that. You get more discoverability by
advertising on standard go-to-places for such events and Meetup is by
far, the most popular platform - not because it's a great platform, but
more because people are just lazy to research other platforms or resources.
I also doubt that setting up some dedicated new platform for announcing
Python community events would make a difference. People would simply not
get to know those platforms. Most people who are new attendees to our
meetings in Düsseldorf, found us via Meetup. Not via a search engine,
our website, the wiki or python.org Events.
Thanks,
--
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 01 2025)
Python Projects, Coaching and Support ... https://www.egenix.com/
Python Product Development ... https://consulting.egenix.com/
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On 01.03.2025 13:34, Elena Williams via pydotorg-www wrote:
Hello!
There has been progress. I'm very grateful to Adam Turner for creating
an export a few days ago that I have been referring to.
To the point of Mats Wichmann: I understand it may be quixotic, but
it's a funny time in history, wikis have a special role on the internet.
It is understood (talking to Adam) that there may be a plan to upgrade
to MoinMoin v2?
Though parallel to this: is there a conversation somewhere about
moving hosts or platforms? For example it was mentioned that assessing
alternatives such as MediaWiki might be considered. Although is it
the case that running the underlying infrastructure may not be
straightforward? Hopefully it's not controversial to relay that
stability of the site in my experience has been imperfect, though I'm
based very far away from anywhere else, so it could just be my experience.
*My question is*: Is there a way to loop in to or participate in
conversation regarding the future for the python wiki? More
importantly: is it to possibly help?
Someone also recommended that I reach out to Ee as well, so I have
done this (though they may be on this list but I am not sure).
I have recently started a conversation with Keith
(https://github.com/KeithTheEE ) regarding the simultaneous interest
in the wiki by the PSF Education & Outreach Workgroup (EOW). We are
sharing our study/work.
In contrast to Keith's work, my context is that I have an interest
specifically in the maintenance of the areas around regional groups
and somewhat around events. For example I see `wiki.python.org
<http://wiki.python.org>` as a potential source of truth/resource
where user groups can start seeking refuge away from meetup.com
<http://meetup.com>, where meetup is a site that has demonstrated
increasingly more problematic behaviour and which may soon become a
meaningful financial burden for the PSF (I don't know this for sure,
though have suspicions based on that startup's behaviour to date).
Even more specifically for me: in the last few months (and ramping up
this year) a team of us are proactively gathering together all of the
python groups in my country. At this time there are many regional
leaders (some of whom are cpython, etc contributors) are being brought
together to share information: a resource/documentation gathering
process is emerging whether we want it to or not. It would be ideal to
capture this in a place of optimal value. I do not want to invent a
new place. I want this place to be the official wiki. There are
concerns (to Mat's points and more from within my local team) that the
wiki as it is today is not a good fit to capture this information.
But if not here, then where? Advice is appreciated.
There is potential yet for `wiki.python.org <http://wiki.python.org>`.
A version that enjoys the rich interactions that many other pieces of
the python community enjoy can be envisioned, such as the many
projects listed here <https://github.com/orgs/python/repositories>,
and personally I have a motivation (itch-to-scratch) to put efforts
towards something like this.
I'd be delighted for engagement regarding any of the above. Per the
email subject line, a docs-auspiced wiki WG could be a good idea to
unpack all this?
Specifically to Marc-Andre Lemburg, any thoughts or insights you might
have would be invaluable.
Kindest possible regards,
---
Elena Williams
Github: elena <http://github.com/elena/>
Discord: elequ
https://fosstodon.org/@elena
https://discuss.python.org/u/elena/
https://forum.djangoproject.com/u/elena/
ps.: For transparency, both for hobby/personal interest as well as for
the purpose of doing background on our national-level efforts to bring
together python users: over the last few months I've already spent
some dozens of side-hours capturing, studying and parameterising the
existing `wiki.python.org <http://wiki.python.org>` as exhaustively as
I can (where this kind of work is an area of expertise for me). This
includes the original email to this list. I have been discussing this
work recently in Python Docs discord.
pps.: Chris Angelico: if you are on this list: I believe you may be in
my country (ie Australia), if so, and if you would like to be part of
our national level efforts let us know and I can send you an invite.
Many familiar python folk are there, though it's quite early days still.
To any other people on the list who are based in Australia: if you
have an interest let me know.
On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 at 04:35, Mats Wichmann <m...@wichmann.us> wrote:
On 2/8/25 03:43, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
> Hi Elena,
>
> I have already responded on Discourse:
>
>
https://discuss.python.org/t/wiki-python-org-access-to-data-dump-of-
> contents/79878/3
>
> If you want to become an editor of the wiki, please tell us you
wiki
> user name. You could then help improve pages.
> On 08.02.2025 03:00, Elena Williams via pydotorg-www wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is following up and duplication (and extension) of the
question
>> on the forum
https://discuss.python.org/t/wiki-python-org-access-to-
>> data-dump-of-contents/79878 .
>>
>> Posting here on advice of Chris Angelico (Rosuav).
>>
>> I’m wondering if there’s an accessible dump of the data of
>> wiki.python.org <http://wiki.python.org> <http://wiki.python.org>?
Unlike many content management systems, MoinMoin does not use a
"database" that you would dump in that sense, but rather a
filesystem-based storage scheme. That's moderately easy to
transfer as
you can just unpack a tarball made of the data directory. Whether
such a
thing exists, is considered shareable, or even whether it's any
more use
than just wandering around the wiki using a web browser is
questionable
(personally, I have No Idea). MoinMoin's own docs have something
on the
storage layout:
https://moinmo.in/MoinDev/Storage
Personal opinion entirely: the way people interact with online media
evolves, and the wiki seems to be losing (or perhaps it's "has lost")
relevance just kind of organically, as has happened with mailing
lists,
with usenet newsgroups, etc. There are still people who prefer older
ways and find the new ones less friendly to their familiar usage
patterns (I'm trying to head off a storm of complaints here - I
happen
not to be particularly fond of "forum software" either, to cite
the case
of python-dev list -> discuss.python.org
<http://discuss.python.org>). Not sure how much work
should be done to try to give the wiki a "new lease on life" to
use your
expression, if today's readers don't prefer this form. After all,
even
StackOverflow is starting to lose relevance as a resource.
Pages that get any kind of regular attention are mostly resource
lists -
editors, IDEs, training, books, user groups, consultants, web
frameworks, etc. and these seem to be good cases for retaining in a
community-curated place. Things that are more in the nature of
"documentation" have a risk of being poorly written, out of date,
littered with links that no longer work (and sometimes the sites
linked
to have been taken over by {scam,spam)mers who serve up some less
than
desirable content).
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