Dear Marc-Andre, Thank you for your prompt and detailed response!
Would it be an option to consider moving the wiki to github? It's unambiguously demonstrated that these days that content of the scope of the wiki is well within what they are accustomed to. --- Elena Williams Github: elena <http://github.com/elena/> On Sun, 2 Mar 2025 at 00:42, Marc-Andre Lemburg <m...@egenix.com> wrote: > Hi Elena, > > I'm not sure I understand what kind of export you are referring to and how > Adam Turner is involved in this. > > *A "wiki WG":* > > This mailing list is basically the group of people maintaining the Python > Wiki and we've been doing this for many many years. So discussions about > the wiki should happen here. > > *My role in all this:* > > Ever since the wiki attack happened in 2013 ( > https://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiAttack2013) I have been taking care of > the server running the python.org wikis. Ee is the one managing the > infrastructure, but I have been putting work into the customization and > scripting needed to keep the moin installation running over the years. > > *Issues with the wiki software:* > > The issues we've had are most likely due to the scale of the operation. > The Python Wiki is AFAIK one of the largest installation of moin worldwide. > > Now, people bring up the topic of the wiki being outdated, misleading, > having old information, etc. etc. every now and then, so this is not new. > The way to change the situation is not to switch off the resource, though, > or to change the underlying software, it's getting people interested in > helping to maintain, curate and update the information that's there. > > The content of the wiki is what's important, not the software that makes > it available. > > *Moving to a new version of moin:* > > As mentioned before, there is a group of people working on a new moin2 > version and the plan is to switch to that new version once it's stable > enough. > > Other wiki systems are usually not capable of dealing with the scale we > need or don't provide the necessary permission management for our content. > We are running three different wikis on the same platform: the > wiki.python.org, the Jython wiki and the PSF wiki, which has a lot of > internal PSF information. > > Running Mediawiki at scale would not be an option either, since this would > require much more sysadmin work than any of us would be willing to spend on > this. > > *Regarding listing user groups:* > > The wiki already has a pretty comprehensive list of user groups around the > world: https://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups > > It also provides a comprehensive list of conferences: > https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonConferences > > The key benefit of using a wiki for all this, is to make it easy for > community members to edit the content. The barrier for getting editing > permissions is very low, very much unlike getting permissions to edit > www.python.org. The number of (active) editors of www.python.org is far > lower than what we have for the wiki - and it shows, if you look around on > the website. > > This is why we are keen on keeping this information resource up and > running. > > The best help you could provide is to encourage users to become editors of > the wiki, to help improve the content and add to it. > > *Replacement for Meetup:* > > While it would be nice to have a better alternative to Meetup, which > charges a lot of money for a poorly managed website and even worse support, > the key benefit of Meetup is hard to beat: discoverability of events by > people who are not deep into the Python community resources. > > I have been running the Python events calendars ( > https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar) for many many years to > improve discoverability of Python events, but even though, things are > slowly improving, the calendars are still not well known within the Python > community. > > Many people have never visited the "Events" section on python.org, which > published the calendars. > > The user group I run with a friend in Düsseldorf, we had been trying to > get away with just sending out announcements for meetings, but we only > gathered more members after we finally decided to go with Meetup... and pay > EUR 200 per year for their poor service :-( > > The wiki is not going to change that. You get more discoverability by > advertising on standard go-to-places for such events and Meetup is by far, > the most popular platform - not because it's a great platform, but more > because people are just lazy to research other platforms or resources. > > I also doubt that setting up some dedicated new platform for announcing > Python community events would make a difference. People would simply not > get to know those platforms. Most people who are new attendees to our > meetings in Düsseldorf, found us via Meetup. Not via a search engine, our > website, the wiki or python.org Events. > > Thanks, > > -- > Marc-Andre Lemburg > eGenix.com > > Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 01 2025) > >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ... https://www.egenix.com/ > >>> Python Product Development ... https://consulting.egenix.com/ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: > > eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 > D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg > Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 > https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ > https://www.malemburg.com/ > > > On 01.03.2025 13:34, Elena Williams via pydotorg-www wrote: > > Hello! > > There has been progress. I'm very grateful to Adam Turner for creating an > export a few days ago that I have been referring to. > > To the point of Mats Wichmann: I understand it may be quixotic, but it's a > funny time in history, wikis have a special role on the internet. > > It is understood (talking to Adam) that there may be a plan to upgrade to > MoinMoin v2? > > Though parallel to this: is there a conversation somewhere about moving > hosts or platforms? For example it was mentioned that assessing > alternatives such as MediaWiki might be considered. Although is it the case > that running the underlying infrastructure may not be straightforward? > Hopefully it's not controversial to relay that stability of the site in my > experience has been imperfect, though I'm based very far away from anywhere > else, so it could just be my experience. > > *My question is*: Is there a way to loop in to or participate in > conversation regarding the future for the python wiki? More importantly: is > it to possibly help? > > Someone also recommended that I reach out to Ee as well, so I have done > this (though they may be on this list but I am not sure). > > I have recently started a conversation with Keith ( > https://github.com/KeithTheEE ) regarding the simultaneous interest in > the wiki by the PSF Education & Outreach Workgroup (EOW). We are sharing > our study/work. > > In contrast to Keith's work, my context is that I have an interest > specifically in the maintenance of the areas around regional groups and > somewhat around events. For example I see `wiki.python.org` as a > potential source of truth/resource where user groups can start seeking > refuge away from meetup.com, where meetup is a site that has demonstrated > increasingly more problematic behaviour and which may soon become a > meaningful financial burden for the PSF (I don't know this for sure, though > have suspicions based on that startup's behaviour to date). Even more > specifically for me: in the last few months (and ramping up this year) a > team of us are proactively gathering together all of the python groups in > my country. At this time there are many regional leaders (some of whom are > cpython, etc contributors) are being brought together to share information: > a resource/documentation gathering process is emerging whether we want it > to or not. It would be ideal to capture this in a place of optimal value. I > do not want to invent a new place. I want this place to be the official > wiki. There are concerns (to Mat's points and more from within my local > team) that the wiki as it is today is not a good fit to capture this > information. > > But if not here, then where? Advice is appreciated. > > There is potential yet for `wiki.python.org`. A version that enjoys the > rich interactions that many other pieces of the python community enjoy can > be envisioned, such as the many projects listed here > <https://github.com/orgs/python/repositories>, and personally I have a > motivation (itch-to-scratch) to put efforts towards something like this. > > I'd be delighted for engagement regarding any of the above. Per the email > subject line, a docs-auspiced wiki WG could be a good idea to unpack all > this? > > Specifically to Marc-Andre Lemburg, any thoughts or insights you might > have would be invaluable. > > Kindest possible regards, > --- > Elena Williams > Github: elena <http://github.com/elena/> > Discord: elequ > https://fosstodon.org/@elena > https://discuss.python.org/u/elena/ > https://forum.djangoproject.com/u/elena/ > > ps.: For transparency, both for hobby/personal interest as well as for the > purpose of doing background on our national-level efforts to bring together > python users: over the last few months I've already spent some dozens of > side-hours capturing, studying and parameterising the existing ` > wiki.python.org` as exhaustively as I can (where this kind of work is an > area of expertise for me). This includes the original email to this list. I > have been discussing this work recently in Python Docs discord. > > pps.: Chris Angelico: if you are on this list: I believe you may be in my > country (ie Australia), if so, and if you would like to be part of our > national level efforts let us know and I can send you an invite. Many > familiar python folk are there, though it's quite early days still. > To any other people on the list who are based in Australia: if you have an > interest let me know. > > > On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 at 04:35, Mats Wichmann <m...@wichmann.us> wrote: > >> On 2/8/25 03:43, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote: >> > Hi Elena, >> > >> > I have already responded on Discourse: >> > >> > https://discuss.python.org/t/wiki-python-org-access-to-data-dump-of- >> > contents/79878/3 >> > >> > If you want to become an editor of the wiki, please tell us you wiki >> > user name. You could then help improve pages. >> >> >> > On 08.02.2025 03:00, Elena Williams via pydotorg-www wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> This is following up and duplication (and extension) of the question >> >> on the forum https://discuss.python.org/t/wiki-python-org-access-to- >> >> data-dump-of-contents/79878 . >> >> >> >> Posting here on advice of Chris Angelico (Rosuav). >> >> >> >> I’m wondering if there’s an accessible dump of the data of >> >> wiki.python.org <http://wiki.python.org>? >> Unlike many content management systems, MoinMoin does not use a >> "database" that you would dump in that sense, but rather a >> filesystem-based storage scheme. That's moderately easy to transfer as >> you can just unpack a tarball made of the data directory. Whether such a >> thing exists, is considered shareable, or even whether it's any more use >> than just wandering around the wiki using a web browser is questionable >> (personally, I have No Idea). MoinMoin's own docs have something on the >> storage layout: >> >> https://moinmo.in/MoinDev/Storage >> >> Personal opinion entirely: the way people interact with online media >> evolves, and the wiki seems to be losing (or perhaps it's "has lost") >> relevance just kind of organically, as has happened with mailing lists, >> with usenet newsgroups, etc. There are still people who prefer older >> ways and find the new ones less friendly to their familiar usage >> patterns (I'm trying to head off a storm of complaints here - I happen >> not to be particularly fond of "forum software" either, to cite the case >> of python-dev list -> discuss.python.org). Not sure how much work >> should be done to try to give the wiki a "new lease on life" to use your >> expression, if today's readers don't prefer this form. After all, even >> StackOverflow is starting to lose relevance as a resource. >> >> Pages that get any kind of regular attention are mostly resource lists - >> editors, IDEs, training, books, user groups, consultants, web >> frameworks, etc. and these seem to be good cases for retaining in a >> community-curated place. Things that are more in the nature of >> "documentation" have a risk of being poorly written, out of date, >> littered with links that no longer work (and sometimes the sites linked >> to have been taken over by {scam,spam)mers who serve up some less than >> desirable content). >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > pydotorg-www mailing > listpydotorg-www@python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www > >
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