On 16 juin 2010, at 10:18, Werner Thie wrote: > So, I have another 2 cents to go :-) > > Mailing list > I like the activity and responsiveness of the mailing list, in my opinion one > of the better lists overall with very helpful people! >
+1 > [CUT] > 'qooxdoo the framework' > Everything which qooxdoo was and is and will be - a very open and cleanly > written JS framework, which has a lot of evolution in store concerning the > changes in terms of HTML5 and mostly easing the bridging work for the > developers (I for one observe still 40% IE6 hits of our public servers). > That's what I wish for qooxdoo to do for me and for this we need the core > team to stay focused on. > > 'qooxdoo the system' (I leave the baptizing to the list) > A single install system (MSW, Mac, **xes) which brings a newbie up to speed > with everything from web server to round trip development in say half an > hour, given a text editor as a basic tool. 'qooxdoo the system' would be > maintained as contrib and would be the flagship letting one crunch out a > minimal RIA with with database support, bells and whistles in a very short > time frame. > > I do not say I have 'qooxdoo the system' under my wings and am hiding it, but > I'm pretty close and happy with my overall development setup and believe that > it would be advantageous for everybody to keep the framework really clean, > the core developers focused on it and let 'qooxdoo the system' take over the > bulk of work in the public arena. > > If there's any interest then I'm for sure willing to help out with code > although I'm probably as limited as everybody time and money wise :-( > This two (module | product | framework | package | distrib ) ,whatever you call it, will unfortunately not facilitate the way from "quick first time user" to the real "normal" one. I would be afraid the second "simpler" one will glue their users into it. If it exists one day, I would like the simpler version to improve Qooxdoo adoption, not spliting the current community. Basically, I don't want to change Qooxdoo, but helps newbie to climb to the top with us. On the other hands, if the simpler version has all the Qooxdoo power, I suggest to remove the complex one :-) > Werner > > > On 14.06.2010 21:04, thron7 wrote: >> I take the opportunity to throw in another 2 cent of mine (giving me an >> overall share of 4 cent in this thread ;). >> >> Single-file qooxdoo >> People sympathizing with this idea should also consider handling of >> images. How would a single-file qooxdoo download handle the many images >> that are used by framework classes, from obvious images like icons in the >> Tree widget to denote files and folders, to less obvious like the >> background images for buttons (for pressed, unpressed, hovered, ... >> states) and images to create the border decoration of widgets. Can anyone >> offer a compelling strategy how to address this? Because if not, the whole >> idea is flawed, because as it currently stands you cannot use qooxdoo >> widgets without the accompanying images. >> >> qooxdoo reputation >> I'm surprised to hear that RAP and IBM are being the flagship references >> for qooxdoo. What about 1&1, one of the biggest internet hosters >> worldwide, and GMX.com, with some *hundreds of thousands* of users using >> it's qooxdoo-based mail client?! Does anyone care to point prospective >> customers to our "Real-life Examples" page[1]? >> >> qooxdoo contrib >> contrib has always be seen as an incubator, just read the main page [2]. >> So there was always the perspective of bringing suitable contribs into the >> core framework. But who will maintain them? It's not enough to copy the >> files over. If they are in the framework, it's sort of a commitment to >> maintain them for the foreseeable future. Who will do that? Who will >> commit himself for the next 3+ years to maintain some widget or name space >> in qooxdoo?! If we find it a challenge to add more features, how much more >> would it be to maintain more foreign code?! >> >> qooxdoo user base >> How important are users for me? Very important! But there a differences >> between users, and our most important user is, guess what, 1&1. Why is >> qooxdoo open source? Because 1&1 decided to share generic development done >> for their purposes with other people who may find it interesting and >> useful. >> Do we want to grow our user base indefinitely? Why not? But as it >> currently stands we're at the brink of what we can handle. Fabian has left >> the team and it is hard to find a replacement. In-house demands for >> qooxdoo are growing (and this is a Good Thing). We are spending about >> 1-8(!) hours per day on the mailing list. People outside the core team >> that are really effective are rare, and do not stick with the project >> (like Matt Gregory, who did an excellent job on the ML while he was with >> it). >> Do we want more users? I for one want more givers, and not only takers. >> And without that, I'm quite happy with the user base we have. >> >> Most people using qooxdoo are concerned with their own work and projects, >> and this is all fair enough. Most people even don't care to comment on >> announcements or weekly status reports as if they simply weren't there. >> Ok. But all who have demands or desires for anything new or different, >> should think at the same time that our resources are tight and should >> offer real contributions (read: code) with any enhancement request and be >> prepared to sustain this submission for a long time. I'm sorry for anybody >> being discontent with qooxdoo, for one reason or another. But we cannot >> cater for everybody. >> >> As I said, another 2 cent. >> >> Thomas >> >> [1] http://qooxdoo.org/community/real_life_examples >> [2] http://qooxdoo.org/contrib >> >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> This thread is a very important for Qooxdoo community. >>> I would like to ensure that any criticism express here will be taken as >>> constrictive, we all love Qooxdoo framework. >>> >>> My main keyword : "no upfront fees". >>> >>> 1. My main concern : Qooxdoo adoption is not wide enough. >>> It is always a benefit to increase developer base. >>> Open source project need open source developers, so we need more >>> developer, not less. >>> >>> When we discuss with our customers, Qooxdoo choice is always tricky to >>> explain as they just never heard about Qooxdoo. >>> The fact that Qooxdoo is the foundation product or RAP architecture from >>> IBM is a good point not not enough. >>> Our customers heard about JQuery, Dojo; Air, Flex, ... but not Qooxdoo. >>> I think the following point contribute to the fact that Qooxdoo user base >>> increase too slowly : >>> >>> 2. contribs >>> do not make Eclipse's mistake : lots of wonderful plugins for everything >>> everywhere. >>> People get lost when they arrive and this contribute to point 1. >>> Make things simple first. Later on, if they want, they could digg for >>> contrib : "no upfront fees". >>> => the framework you can download must contain all needed elements without >>> any use of contrib, especially for widgets. >>> (when you just start Qooxdoo, including a contrib is seen as a complex >>> task) >>> >>> Maybe a process like Apache is a good idea : first contrib are hosted on >>> incubator and later on as top level project. >>> a community (not just few 1&1 people) vote and ensure quality of top level >>> project. >>> That committee also ensure that there are no dozen of contrib for the same >>> things. >>> Things need to be kept organized, it won't be organized by itself. >>> >>> 3. initial complexity >>> I think the Qooxdoo learning curve is too steep. >>> I already said it, I didn't change my mind. >>> Qooxdoo build is too complex for first time developer : "no upfront fees". >>> Give Qooxdoo as an optional big all-in-one file to download. >>> This is universal, any developer understand that one big file can be >>> included and then used. >>> This is not optimal, OK, but this is not a bad news, this is a GOOD news. >>> Let me explain. >>> The developer learn Qooxdoo building his apps step by step concentrating >>> on why he choose Qooxdoo : the javascript framework, the widgets. >>> No need to install Python, no need to learn and understand config json >>> file : just a simple file to include. >>> >>> Now he has a Qooxdoo apps but not optimized, the good news come : Qooxdoo >>> has a gift called Qooxdoo build. >>> It is in Python and can optimize the apps for free ! Isn't that a good >>> news ? >>> The developer has to learn the build system only when it need it and not >>> before. "no upfront fees". >>> >>> Of course, the build is still the advised way to use Qooxdoo but let the >>> developer decide by himself, please do not decide for him that he need or >>> not that build. >>> >>> This will make Qooxdoo simpler to use at first time, and so improve point >>> 1. >>> >>> 4. multimedia and appearance >>> Default "modern" appearance could have better look. >>> Eye candy is important. >>> >>> I don't think people will be motivated enough to develop their own theme >>> or some widgets. >>> Unfortunately, human being will let people choose other framework for bad >>> reasons : appearance and lack of time. >>> Contrib is not either an answer (see point 2). >>> I don't have idea here but I hope we will not dive again in our beloved >>> API without trying to improve appearance. >>> >>> >>> Conclusion : >>> Usual warning and disclosures : I do not intend to whine, complain or >>> other negative things. >>> I'm just trying to help improving a product I choose as an element of the >>> software architecture of our product. >>> We are now highly tight to Qooxdoo. >>> After more than 5 years following Qooxdoo project and nearly 3 years using >>> it, I would like to thanks Qooxdoo for letting us building Web GUI without >>> using nasty tags ;-) >>> >>> My 2 cents. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ThinkGeek and WIRED's GeekDad team up for the Ultimate >>> GeekDad Father's Day Giveaway. ONE MASSIVE PRIZE to the >>> lucky parental unit. See the prize list and enter to win: >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/thinkgeek-promo >>> _______________________________________________ >>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ThinkGeek and WIRED's GeekDad team up for the Ultimate >> GeekDad Father's Day Giveaway. ONE MASSIVE PRIZE to the >> lucky parental unit. See the prize list and enter to win: >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/thinkgeek-promo >> _______________________________________________ >> qooxdoo-devel mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > <werner.vcf>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ThinkGeek and WIRED's GeekDad team up for the Ultimate > GeekDad Father's Day Giveaway. ONE MASSIVE PRIZE to the > lucky parental unit. See the prize list and enter to win: > http://p.sf.net/sfu/thinkgeek-promo_______________________________________________ > qooxdoo-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ThinkGeek and WIRED's GeekDad team up for the Ultimate GeekDad Father's Day Giveaway. ONE MASSIVE PRIZE to the lucky parental unit. See the prize list and enter to win: http://p.sf.net/sfu/thinkgeek-promo _______________________________________________ qooxdoo-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
