On Thu, 12 Jan 2017, Martin Winter wrote:

Objection against something and a veto are different things.

I don't think there's much point having yet another argument about the meaning of words.

way, but also accept to be overruled by a majority. But then you made it clear that this isn’t a democracy or anything and this is your fork and it’s your way or the highway.

"democracy"? what do you mean by that?

There isn't a single democracy on this planet where you can just go in and immediately expect your voice to be heard. Hell, you're not even _born_ with the right - you have to wait 16, 18+, years.

Further, even in democracies, there usually are ways to _protect_ minority and status-quo interests *from* the majority. Like constitutional rights, independent judiciaries, establishment-biased upper houses, etc.

In industry organisations, there often are establishment biases too. E.g., the IETF, despite ostensibly being a consensus organisation, has a hierarchy of WG chairs, ADs, etc., which can apply judgement to what consensus is - and getting into those positions takes time to develop the standing.

Quagga worked on consensus, amongst a group of maintainers. I could block things, yes, so could others. Had it grown stale, yes, sure.

The ways to fix that did not include ambushing me on a conference call, calling a vote on a flimsy document, of people of varied experience in Quagga.

- There was someone who attended who I'd never heard of before, until a
  few working days earlier when they emailed to ask to join that call,
  from a vendor with one recent bug report + diagnosis. Who we've never
  heard from again since either.

  How come they suddenly popped up for that call? It's a mystery. I note
  a board member of NetDEF works at that said vendor, but I'm sure
  that's a complete co-incidence.

- The document was largely agreeable goal stuff that no one would vote

  Except, buried within was changing from maintainers consensus to some
  unspecified wider community majority voting. The constitutional
  implications of which were not pointed out .

- You had not mentioned, till that day I think, that the two main
  agitators for this constitutional change (you and another) were in
  fact close business partners.

- You ignored the detailed technical governance process I sent you more
  than a year before that, in Jan '15. Which had actual workable
  processes in it, and was based on the technical governance model I had
  seen work inside Sun Microsystems.

  Indeed, you never mentioned that anyone.

  That document actually proposed _removing_ individual vetos, and
  requiring two objections to block instead. (This was when I
  trusted you a lot more than I do now). _You_ rejected that.

It was at that point (earlyish last year), with that call, that I stopped believing you were acting fully in good faith on the governance reform stuff.

Because I care about Quagga

I believe you did, and still do to some extent. But I also believe you have the self-interest of positioning NetDEF as the guardian of this code-base.

And it's not wrong to be self-interested, nor to care about this codebase, per se. What I can't believe is that you don't realise I have no less of the same self-interest as you. I have been working on this code-base as long as anyone. I have put sweat and tears into it too.

I told you, and others, I was happy to _share_ the governance.

NetDEF contributions are greatfully accepted, but if you think it's socio-politically a smart thing to barge in and start demanding the project's governance be changed to suit you, and try run rough-shod over the objections of the _founder_ (who did try engage on the topic, but was ignored) with political games, then you have even fewer people skills than I do. (I at least _know_ that I suck at politics).

2) Clarification if you want anyone from NetDEF to stop providing any
   help on Quagga.

But, you already have.

Least, I see fixes in the FRR tree for my commits in Quagga that you havn't sent here. E.g., Christian's stuff for the tags width.

(But, maybe technically you're not blowing smoke there, if that work by Christian, David, etc., is paid for by some other org).

 I didn’t expect to withdraw from it, but it sounds
   like this is your wish. Happy to comply and no screaming needed. A
   simple email with a clarification would be all that’s needed.

Are you offering to commit to keep the Quagga testing in place? To what date?

Your testing is great. It's really useful (other than that I can't tinker with it directly). However, I was assuming the timing of access to that was going depend on your fork.

Paul Jakma | p...@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
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