On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 01:17:10AM -0300, Franz wrote: > On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Unman <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 01:29:32AM -0300, Franz wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Unman <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 05:13:56PM +0100, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users > > > > wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:08:28 CET Unman wrote: > > > > > > "useful, but wasnt any good" - do you mean buggy or poorly > > designed? > > > > > > What 2 features should be implemented/fixed? > > > > > > > > > > > > I confess I rarely use the Manager, so don't have a feel for what's > > > > wrong > > > > > > with it. > > > > > > > > > > To be clear, the main reason the old one is removed seems to be that > > it > > > > > would have had to be reimplemented due to the architecture changes > > in 4.0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom, this is simply not true. > > > > If you look at issue #2132 you will see that it was a deliberate design > > > > principle. It has nothing to do with the architecture changes and > > > > everything to do with simplifying the UX. > > > > > > > > I have to say that most of the users I have helped to work with Qubes > > > > (most unfamiliar to Linux and certainly unused to the command line), > > > > simply DO NOT USE the manager. > > > > > > > > > > Well that proves nothing. If you do not much use the manager and are > > > teaching people to use Qubes, then you tend to teach to follow the way > > you > > > do things and your followers will just do that. > > > > > > On the contrary I am using the manager for everything also for starting > > > applications and when I teach Qubes teach it this way and it is learned > > > this way, so that loosing the manager means loosing all references to be > > > able to use Qubes. > > > > Franz, > > > > I choose not to use the manager. But, as I've said before, my > > requirements are probably very different from most users. For various > > reasons, I don't listen to music/play games/ use YouTube/ etc etc - most > > of the stuff I do is in a terminal. Even people who like me think this is > > weird. > > > > But the people I help use their computers in very different ways from > > that. > > I don't teach them not to use the manager, I show them how to use Qubes > > without the manager - some of them find it for themselves, and like it > > - some don't. > > > > Here are some things these users DONT want to do: > > Start a qube > > Stop a qube > > Start a disposableVM > > Look in the manager to see if there are updates. > > > > Here are some of the things they want to do: > > Read their emails. > > Go online in a secure way. > > Browse without risking their emails/bank accounts > > Open a web browser that wont keep history/cant compromise their private > > stuff. > > Look at pictures from phones/ downloads as safely as possible. > > Keep their system updated. > > > > Do you see what I mean? For many users the HOW of Qubes is completely > > irrelevant, and because the Manager focusses on that it's a distraction. > > The default Menu system has the same problem - it draws attention to the > > qubes, not the activities. > > So by providing a simple menu system, a few templates and some minor > > configuration you can have a workable system that almost anyone can use > > without knowing anything about the Qubes infrastructure, and without > > need for the Manager. > > > > Will this suit everyone? Of course not - it doesn't suit me. It certainly > > wont suit many of the people in this thread. If this is any guide then > > many current users seem to want something in 4.0 > > For that reason I think it's worthwhile spending some time on > > reinstating something like the old Manager in 4.0. I've started on this > > focussing on the "display" side of the current Manager, rather than the > > function side that some people seem to want to enhance. Let's see how we > > get on. > > > > @Unman > I understand what you mean, but again it all depends how you teach it. My > wife wasn't even able to send an email, but when I told her to look at the > manager for updates of templates she did it. Did she likes that? Of course > not. But when I explained that an updated system is important for security > she keeps updating it. When she asked: how can I start firefox? I replied: > Manager, right button, run in VM, firefox. She keeps doing that. On the > contrary if I had told her: start menu on the left look for you VM and > firefox under that, she would do just that. >
You could make it even easier by providing a custom menu that matches expectations and "does the right thing". Menu - Firefox - opens online qube and opens Firefox. Menu - Banking - opens restricted qube and opens Firefox. Menu - Email - opens email qube and opens Thunderbird. Menu - Libreoffice Writer - opens offline qube and opens Libreoffice. By customising mime handling in the qubes you can enforce opening files in a disposableVM, etc. All this has the advantage that almost anyone can start working straight away, without any instruction, just because it matches their expectations. A few launchers in the panel make it even easier. It helps if users understand how to transfer files from one qube to another, and the menu items are really helpful there, and build on what they already know. As I've said before, (many times) it's the funny cut/paste that takes getting used to. > 4 four mouths ago she was raged against Qubes being to difficult (for some > reason when she plugs a usb key into the slot it stopped working) so she > bought a Mac, but it is still there because she does not know how to use > it. So reverted to Qubes again even if the USB is not working. What I want > to say is that people that do not like to experiment with computer just > memorize what they are told and always do the same steps just happy that it > works. Yes, so I take advantage of what they already know. On the hardware front I always have them run Qubes Live to make sure that there are no immediate problems. USB can be a problem, particularly USB3 for some reason, but nothing I haven't found insurmountable. Naturally, different people have different experiences - but this is the case for many Linux distros - I don't think Qubes is peculiar in that. It's interesting how many issues raised in Qubes use can be solved by googling for solutions in other distros. People forget that in many cases it will be a Fedora/Debian issue at root. Anyway, I don't want to labour the point. Enough people seem to like the Manager style approach to make it worth putting something like it into 4.0. unman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20171208105007.dgkrrxdevx5fmko4%40thirdeyesecurity.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
