On 03/13/18 07:27, Yuraeitha wrote:
First, I'll apologize if I sound a bit grumpy today, it's not on you, and I hope you will remember that below, even though I strongly disagree with you, it's nonetheless nothing personal.
No offense taken here. You have a right to be grumpy!
Originally the off-topic I made was secondary mentions, my on-topic was the reason for posting, which was to make others aware why their post are deleted too here on Qubes users mailing list. I actually searched for an existing thread on it, but I found none, hence why I made this post for future users who use the search system for this issue, and not just the current users.
What if any evidence of deliberate censorship do we have? Are there keywords that target ones email for censorship? For what reason do you think your email was specifically targeted?
I would agree that any censorship is likely from "a bot" in the sense of an algorithm running on a machine at Google, but then why should I just throw up my hands and _not_ contact them to tell them they are screwing up badly? Even a bot can be tweaked to minimize collateral damage.
When somebody wrongs you in this way as you are suggesting, they are actually wronging us as a group, and we should stand up and push back, or nothing will ever change. So far you have not told us why this should be seen as a deliberate and/or malicious act. I may have missed it, that's quite possible, and I would appreciate being corrected if that is the case. I still think/feel its a matter of incompetence on some level without at least some evidence pointing to the contrary. If there is hard evidence of it, then there is all the more reason to complain. Its the volume of the public back-pressure that will illicit changes in corporate behavior, so the more complaints the faster the fix.
This reminds me of a situation with the Chinese government censorship, where some analysts monitored their social media and watched for what messages disappeared. After analyzing the messages that went missing they determined exactly what kinds of issues they were specifically censoring. The reasoning and logic of what they were doing was then public and the people could adjust to remain under the radar. That same technique could be used here if one could determine at what step in that exchange process those things were being censored. Knowing what they are censoring would be quite newsworthy.
btw - With 100% probability, this reply would have been censored by the Chinese government. Any guesses why? It may not be what you think.
In regards to contacting google, it will be useless. I already know the core issue at hand, I don't need to write to google, because it won't solve anything by doing that, google won't change it, it's not a bug, it's a system pushed forward by political movement. This is google increasing their bot censorship from that movement, but scre*wed up in the process. These censorship systems are something that is hard to do without building democratic censorship, but on the other hand it's very easy to use them for just that, intentional censorship. It's only a few clicks away to prevent democracy, and who decides what is censored anyway? and who controls who controls them? and who controls the future leaders who might someday go rogue on the democratic system which is only a few clicks away from becoming locked down and controlled? This is an anti-democratic political movement, which google is enforcing. This is a wide known problem, I'd expect everyone here knows this issue, which is inflamed by i.e. American politicians who wants to force organizations to monitor all conversations and make automatic censorship systems. The problem isn't something you can fix by contacting google, you can only fix it by ditching google altogether for someone that doesn't try do censorship. While the issue happened probably due to a bug, it doesn't change that everything we write here is censored, hence it doesn't matter if we fix the bug or not, it just puts focus on why these hidden automatic censorships are a bad idea to begin with. This is a poor political decision made by people that doesn't understand technology, and who doesn't care about democracy. They are control freaks who think they can make everything work through strict rules, and at that point, you build the internet of a dictatorship nation, then you only need the nation to become dictatorship as well. In an era where internet is becoming synonymous with society, it's dangerous for a democracy to have an internet of a dictators, it'll only shift people into becoming blind followers of a dictatorship system. Censoring content, will only shift power to a centralized location, you cannot expect a democracy to keep working if it's eaten up slowly by mechanics that prevents a democracy to work. This is just one part destroying democracy, we don't need to tell google to fix the bug, we need to tell them to remove this censorship entirely. Furthermore I've seen other people get their mails deleted recently, it's building up as of late, and this message was an attempt to reach out so that we can increase awareness of the issue, rather than leaving people with frustrations. The deleted posts don't tell anyone if googled deleted them, or if the person deleted them, which is also a big issue, but telling google to fix that, won't fix that they censor everything anyway. This, as [799] pointed out, can also serve as a discussion as to why we use something anti-freedom like Google, when it isn't aligning with Qubes core values. That's why all this is much more on-topic, that you might at first think about it. I'll have to copy/paste this message, just in case it gets deleted (once again).
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