I'm with Mark on this one. In my experience as a student and a teacher at University, CS concepts and theory is what they're going for - not proficiency in any particular language. I agree that they do tilt towards being relevant to industry but I suggest that this is never going to be their primary motivation - so their selection of languages is always going to be suboptimal from a vocational standpoint. If you hire a fresh uni graduate because they've studied a particular language (or not hired one because they don't have exposure to a particular language), I think you are doing it wrong.
I think that advocacy for Ruby is probably better directed at industry groups. Organisations like the Australian Institute of Company Directors would, I'm sure, welcome a talk on Ruby and open source in general. Also, it'd be great to get speakers in generalist IT conferences that Executive types go to, and, get articles in the sorts of publications that these folks put stock in. Think we'd do well to help them understand the depth and breadth of this community, and, explode some myths about the risks inherent in adopting open source software while we are at it. It's these decision makers that perpetuate the "nobody ever got fired for buying/using <insert brand name or buzzword compliant tech of choice>" and largely why enterprises stay with outdated, expensive and miserably boring tech - we should help them out of that rut! My $0.02, Navin On Friday, April 27, 2012 8:44:13 PM UTC+10, Mark Wotton wrote: > > I'm going to be contrary here and suggest the opposite: whenever > university courses try to be "industry-relevant", they're always laughably > behind. I would far prefer to get out of uni with a reasonable > understanding of algorithms, operating systems and fundamentals of > programming languages than any amount of industry-specific training. > > Learning Ruby is just not that hard. > > mark > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Leonard <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I went through a few Sydney based universities went through their >> handbooks and tried to figure out what web technologies each university >> offers as part of their IT courses and made it into a google spreadsheet so >> anyone can correct me if they feel like it. Basically everyone either uses >> Java, .NET with UTS using PHP in one of their courses (where they also >> teach JSP!) >> >> >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiXwL9nLLJg2dE9acHdUMzdvcjlIV21adUl1N0tkakE >> >> It was rather depressing. Here are a few choice quotes: >> >> *UNSW* >> >>> Through a large project, you will get exposure to a number of different >>> contexts in which application development is required (e.g. building a Web >>> site and accessing a database). The programming language used will be >>> object-oriented (e.g. Java). >>> >> >> I find it interesting that building a database-backed website is >> considered a large project. >> >> *UOW* >> >>> introduce students to User Interface (UI) elements in general and Web >>> Forms >> >> covers the object oriented features of web programming in general and the >>> concept of dynamically generated classes from web forms and their web >>> controls in particular. Form processing, the interaction of web >>> applications through SOAP (Simple Object Model) protocol >> >> >> In case anyone has managed to avoid SOAP: be thankful. >> >> The more I look at this the more I think technology and web education >> needs to improve. I can't find any mention of things like testing or source >> control and very little mention of open source at all. I remember that >> during my degree at UTS I was the one who introduced SVN to the other >> students - but only because I was using ClearCase at work... UOW in >> particular must be particularly hated by students with Macbooks being >> entirely .NET focused.Lief's comment was particularly insightful. I can't >> help but think that having people head to universities to talk about how to >> differentiate yourself, or even simply advertising the fact that there are >> such thing as real-world programming communities would be both extremely >> useful to students and useful for our niche too. >> >> -- Len >> >> On Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:58:26 PM UTC+10, Daryl wrote: >> >>> +1 on educational advocacy. Anyone have an idea what USyd, UTS et al are >>> teaching in terms of web development and frameworks these days? >>> >>> (I know during my UK MSc, java and C++ were the *only* programming >>> options and the whole curricula was very, very Microsoft focused. It was >>> swimming upstream trying to use php for web projects and/or ruby - hell, >>> even a mac for that matter.). >>> >>> D. >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Leonard >>> >>>> This is probably wildly off-topic.... >>>> >>>> Where do we raise issues or suggestions for Ruby Australia in meeting >>>> it's core aims? >>>> >>>> Today @dhh was tweeting that the "Rails job market still is [tight]". >>>> One aspect affecting this is the lack of new ruby developers coming in and >>>> learning Ruby. I feel that it should be the responsibility of Ruby >>>> Australia to encourage Universities and High Schools to teach Ruby as >>>> opposed to Java or PHP. I'm not sure about everyone else but my university >>>> taught PHP as a web language (and now teaches PHP/Java from what I can >>>> tell). I know that if I had been exposed to Ruby (or Python) at university >>>> I would have spent much less time faffing around making crappy PHP >>>> websites >>>> or alternatively being confused and overawed by those "enterprise" Java >>>> monstrosities. >>>> >>>> Has Ruby/Rails education advocacy been discussed as one of the goals of >>>> Ruby Australia? Should it be? >>>> >>>> -- Len >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/NY_sEaqjoHcJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a > black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a > quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. > -- Chris Maeda > > On Friday, April 27, 2012 8:44:13 PM UTC+10, Mark Wotton wrote: > > I'm going to be contrary here and suggest the opposite: whenever > university courses try to be "industry-relevant", they're always laughably > behind. I would far prefer to get out of uni with a reasonable > understanding of algorithms, operating systems and fundamentals of > programming languages than any amount of industry-specific training. > > Learning Ruby is just not that hard. > > mark > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Leonard <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I went through a few Sydney based universities went through their >> handbooks and tried to figure out what web technologies each university >> offers as part of their IT courses and made it into a google spreadsheet so >> anyone can correct me if they feel like it. Basically everyone either uses >> Java, .NET with UTS using PHP in one of their courses (where they also >> teach JSP!) >> >> >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiXwL9nLLJg2dE9acHdUMzdvcjlIV21adUl1N0tkakE >> >> It was rather depressing. Here are a few choice quotes: >> >> *UNSW* >> >>> Through a large project, you will get exposure to a number of different >>> contexts in which application development is required (e.g. building a Web >>> site and accessing a database). The programming language used will be >>> object-oriented (e.g. Java). >>> >> >> I find it interesting that building a database-backed website is >> considered a large project. >> >> *UOW* >> >>> introduce students to User Interface (UI) elements in general and Web >>> Forms >> >> covers the object oriented features of web programming in general and the >>> concept of dynamically generated classes from web forms and their web >>> controls in particular. Form processing, the interaction of web >>> applications through SOAP (Simple Object Model) protocol >> >> >> In case anyone has managed to avoid SOAP: be thankful. >> >> The more I look at this the more I think technology and web education >> needs to improve. I can't find any mention of things like testing or source >> control and very little mention of open source at all. I remember that >> during my degree at UTS I was the one who introduced SVN to the other >> students - but only because I was using ClearCase at work... UOW in >> particular must be particularly hated by students with Macbooks being >> entirely .NET focused.Lief's comment was particularly insightful. I can't >> help but think that having people head to universities to talk about how to >> differentiate yourself, or even simply advertising the fact that there are >> such thing as real-world programming communities would be both extremely >> useful to students and useful for our niche too. >> >> -- Len >> >> On Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:58:26 PM UTC+10, Daryl wrote: >> >>> +1 on educational advocacy. Anyone have an idea what USyd, UTS et al are >>> teaching in terms of web development and frameworks these days? >>> >>> (I know during my UK MSc, java and C++ were the *only* programming >>> options and the whole curricula was very, very Microsoft focused. It was >>> swimming upstream trying to use php for web projects and/or ruby - hell, >>> even a mac for that matter.). >>> >>> D. >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Leonard >>> >>>> This is probably wildly off-topic.... >>>> >>>> Where do we raise issues or suggestions for Ruby Australia in meeting >>>> it's core aims? >>>> >>>> Today @dhh was tweeting that the "Rails job market still is [tight]". >>>> One aspect affecting this is the lack of new ruby developers coming in and >>>> learning Ruby. I feel that it should be the responsibility of Ruby >>>> Australia to encourage Universities and High Schools to teach Ruby as >>>> opposed to Java or PHP. I'm not sure about everyone else but my university >>>> taught PHP as a web language (and now teaches PHP/Java from what I can >>>> tell). I know that if I had been exposed to Ruby (or Python) at university >>>> I would have spent much less time faffing around making crappy PHP >>>> websites >>>> or alternatively being confused and overawed by those "enterprise" Java >>>> monstrosities. >>>> >>>> Has Ruby/Rails education advocacy been discussed as one of the goals of >>>> Ruby Australia? Should it be? >>>> >>>> -- Len >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/NY_sEaqjoHcJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a > black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a > quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. > -- Chris Maeda > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/v9exphdvH6sJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en.
