> > > This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard. > And this thread is as long as ZZ Tops beards combined. ;)
As primary antagonist I would like to call *case closed* in the affirmative. Regards, Stonie. On 31 July 2012 09:51, Shamael Keng <[email protected]> wrote: > mind my spelling, written in a rush and in the middle of breakfast. > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Shamael Keng <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hey guys. > > > > This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard. > > > > Frankly if you don't want to use a recuruiter dont. > > > > If you do want to use a recruiter, negotiate your terms to suit both > > parties. simple. Its a service, you engage them when you need them and > > for a reason. > > > > I you want to bash on an industry just becuase you pay invoices which > > "seem" too much. refer to above point. > > > > In an industry which employs a lot of "questionable" types, if you > > have a bad experiance, name and shame. I can't say I have been > > exemplery, but all I can say is ive been trasnperant throughout the > > whole process. > > > > "Is your recruiter screwing you?". Probably if you let him. The whole > > argument in regards to the costing or cost structure recruiters use, > > use a niche recruiter, if you are going to use one. They will be more > > open to negotiation. > > > > Do your homework, don't be lazy. > > > > You have gone to agency becuase you are having toruble finding the > > right people. Don't go to monkey's when you want to find gold. > > > > Sorry but I fight for the good recruitment agent, the ones who add > > value to business's thorugh finding resources which are hard to find. > > In my eyes there is definate value add, Ive seen it. > > > > Regards > > > > -- > > SK > > > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Andrew Stone <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Rob, > >> > >> Your post is a good summary of why many people consider the recruitment > >> model you describe as being 'broken'. > >> > >> The on-costs you point out can be avoided in many cases... lots of small > >> businesses are exempt from payroll tax (Current threshold in NSW is > >> $689,000) > >> And many industry segments for larger corporates (media for one) often > does > >> not require PI and PL for Developers. > >> > >> Recruitment agencies tend to charge the insurance anyway as they have a > >> discounted policy for n Developers and it becomes another place to hide > the > >> cream (and seems like a value add with a bit of sales talk). > >> > >> Your argument about low paying jobs is a bit ironic... if the offered > rate > >> was ~30% higher due to the absence of a recruitment agent... the job > might > >> be worth taking. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Andrew Stone. > >> > >> > >> > >> On 30 July 2012 16:11, Rob <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I am a recruiter, and have had success with this board in placing > >>> candidates in the market. I totally agree with what Ashley is saying in > >>> relation to fee structures etc. I would like to elaborate upon the > concept > >>> of Margin, which may equate to a higher than 20% markup. I have no > doubt > >>> that everyone understands this, but just to be sure, as an > example...margin > >>> is the percentage of the charge rate, and markup is the percentage on > the > >>> cost...two totally different things....especially when oncosts are > involved. > >>> > >>> For instance, if I was to charge a 15% margin on a candidate, who was > >>> earning $100 per hour, I would have to charge the client $129...this > ensures > >>> that I am earning 15% margin. > >>> > >>> To the candidate, I am effectively putting on a 29% markup...BUT only > >>> earning 15% margin (of the charge rate) > >>> > >>> This is where the confusion lies the difference between MARGIN and > MARKUP > >>> > >>> > >>> ie. for $129 charge, 15% margin ($19), 10% oncost (workers comp, PI/PL, > >>> Payroll Tax), and $100 for the candidate > >>> > >>> $100 + $10 + $19 = $129...the recruiter is earning 15% margin of the > >>> charge rate. > >>> > >>> If we reverse it from a charge of $100 at a margin of 15%....I would > earn > >>> $15, oncost $7, candidate rate $77....this is a margin of 15% of the > charge > >>> rate....but if you compare the $77 to the $100 charge, it is roughly a > >>> 29-30% markup again. > >>> > >>> > >>> So, if people are seeing 30% markups on their rates, please don't > assume > >>> that the recruiter is earning all of that....they aren't. On top of the > >>> services of payrolling, recruiters take the risk of clients folding or > not > >>> paying, when we always pay our recruiters upon signed timesheets, > regardless > >>> if the client has paid or not....this of course saves the candidate > from > >>> having to chase payment (one more worry they don't have to deal with). > AND > >>> YES, sometimes clients do fold or don't pay.....which means as a > recruiter, > >>> you are out of pocket for the total candidate rate + oncosts and of > course > >>> with the margin that you have lost as well. Once had a client not pay > for a > >>> candidate for two months, they folded, ...so lost whole lot of money. > Some > >>> candidates may laugh and say, well them's the breaks....and well, I > would > >>> have to agree....but we do charge a fee for a service and the risk > >>> associated where there is essentially no risk to the candidate in > terms of > >>> non-payment (with me anyway) > >>> > >>> Also, 15% or there abouts, in the scheme of things, with the amount of > >>> payroll at risk, is not overly expensive (we currently have a yearly > payroll > >>> of about $1.5million per year give or take - money we pay out and hope > to > >>> get back - this is small for the market).....I have recruited for some > of > >>> the big4 and some of their charge-outs for their permanent employees > are > >>> amazing...we are talking 100-200% sometimes. > >>> > >>> So, if you are on a contract through a recruiter, and you are getting > paid > >>> on time for the work you are doing and the pay is correct (no hassles > or > >>> problems each week)...then this is a good thing and is part of the > service > >>> for that 15% margin that they earn. > >>> > >>> I firmly agree with Ashley that rule of thumb contract is roughly > 20-30% > >>> increase on a permanent salary...so if you are on $100 per hour, > divide that > >>> by 1.25 and you will get your equivalent permanent comparative rate > which > >>> can easily translate into a permanent salary package...roughly $115k > >>> > >>> EVERYONE, regardless of industry or skill needs to separate job worth > from > >>> personal worth. ie, if a CEO hit rock bottom and could only get a job > as a > >>> cleaner, he would only be paid a cleaners salary, even though he is > worth a > >>> CEO salary. > >>> > >>> So, if you are getting hit up for low paying roles, that is what the > job > >>> is worth to the employer, if you feel that it is too low, then don't > go for > >>> it (sometimes employers try their luck)....as recruiters we need to > keep in > >>> constant contact with candidates as their situations change and > sometimes I > >>> have had candidates go for lower rate jobs (rare, but it does happen). > If > >>> you are the best Ruby developer in the world, and you are worth $1000 > per > >>> hour but only $50 per hour roles are available, then you have to make a > >>> judgement call based upon job worth to personal worth....ie you can > say "Im > >>> worth $1000 per hour and not doing that" and don't work and get zero > income, > >>> or you could have income by working at $50 per hour....extreme example > I > >>> know, but hopefully highlights the point I am trying to make. > >>> > >>> Yes, there are cowboys in the industry, as with any industry, but like > >>> Ashley said, there are some good recruiters out there that know their > >>> markets well, and network hard to find out who, what, when, where, why > and > >>> how........, without finding that information out, they can't provide > >>> candidates jobs nor can they provide clients candidates....hence the > need to > >>> call people...many many many many people :) > >>> > >>> > >>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 4:02:19 PM UTC+10, Ashley P wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Chances are they might be :) > >>>> > >>>> But we aren't all bad! > >>>> > >>>> If you are a Ruby developer chances are you've probably seen my name > >>>> before either on Seek, at Ruby meet-ups or on one of those pesky > Linked-in > >>>> invites I send around. I really like the Ruby community and have a > passion > >>>> for working with developers to find them cool jobs. > >>>> > >>>> That being said recruitment gets a bad name especially amongst the > Ruby > >>>> community. I'm here to defend our reputation but also to acknowledge > our > >>>> flaws. > >>>> > >>>> Many recruiters do have no idea when it comes to development roles. > They > >>>> throw out buzz words like 'Apache' or 'Object Oriented' to make it > look like > >>>> they know what they are talking about. > >>>> > >>>> That being said a recruiter can often be of use. They can present > >>>> opportunities that you wouldn't have heard about, discuss potential > career > >>>> movements or even help with your resume and skills training programs. > >>>> > >>>> Sure as a quality developer you could probably find a good job > yourself. > >>>> But are you sure it's the best job!!? Use your own networks in > addition to a > >>>> recruiter to expand the pool of jobs and find yourself in the best > job you > >>>> can! > >>>> > >>>> Tips on dealing with recruiters: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Don't only use a recruiter. Use your own networks as well. Come up > >>>> with an many opportunities as you can yourself and then use a > recruiter or 2 > >>>> to expand your opportunities > >>>> 2. Don't be pushed around on Salary/Rate. Know what you're worth. Be > open > >>>> with your salary with a friend or former colleague to know what your > worth > >>>> and stick to it. (A common tactic is to ask people what they were on > >>>> previously and hold them to a salary near this. You shouldn't fall > for it. > >>>> Be honest about what you were previously on but let the recruiter / > hiring > >>>> manager know that due to your research you believe the market rate to > be X > >>>> and that you are hoping for a figure around that mark.) > >>>> 3. Ask who the client is. Often a recruiter will want to chat to you a > >>>> bit first however, it is totally within your right to ask who the > recruiters > >>>> client is after an initial chat to determine your suitability > >>>> 4. Remember your in control of the process. If you don't like a > specific > >>>> recruiter don't use him/her. In fact it's your right to call up and > say I > >>>> don't want you representing me to X. > >>>> > >>>> Can a recruiter really help me? > >>>> > >>>> Yes and no. It really depends on the relationships the recruiter has > >>>> built. > >>>> If the recruiter is blindly sending CV's around town without having > met > >>>> the hiring manager they really won't be of any use to you. > >>>> That being said if they have built a strong relationship with the > hiring > >>>> manager their word often will decide whether or not you get an > interview :). > >>>> They can also act as a beneficial middle ground to assist in > negotiations > >>>> and getting things moving! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Recruitment Rates > >>>> > >>>> Are recruitment rates too high? Well honestly yes they are fairly high > >>>> but we are running a business and as you can all understand we need > to make > >>>> a profit! > >>>> Also people don't realise the amount of effort we actually go to in > >>>> providing a short-list. Many developers think I just simply called > them, > >>>> sent their resume to the company and got a massive cheque. What they > don't > >>>> realise is that to get that one person a job I had to look at over 400 > >>>> resumes, speak to over 80 people and all for a 1/3 shot in actually > filling > >>>> a position. I work 8-6 and I'm a fairly quick worker! > >>>> That being said yes some recruitment rates are too high and companies > >>>> need to be smart on who they use. > >>>> > >>>> Anyway if your looking for a recruiter who loves the Ruby community > and > >>>> who actually cares about your career please give me a call. I won't > screw > >>>> you over and I'm available after-hours with bookings and all > conversations > >>>> are 100% confidential. > >>>> > >>>> [email protected]. 0404-590-975. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. > >>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/0Q_9sWmaCaQJ. > >>> > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected]. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. 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