mind my spelling, written in a rush and in the middle of breakfast. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Shamael Keng <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey guys. > > This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard. > > Frankly if you don't want to use a recuruiter dont. > > If you do want to use a recruiter, negotiate your terms to suit both > parties. simple. Its a service, you engage them when you need them and > for a reason. > > I you want to bash on an industry just becuase you pay invoices which > "seem" too much. refer to above point. > > In an industry which employs a lot of "questionable" types, if you > have a bad experiance, name and shame. I can't say I have been > exemplery, but all I can say is ive been trasnperant throughout the > whole process. > > "Is your recruiter screwing you?". Probably if you let him. The whole > argument in regards to the costing or cost structure recruiters use, > use a niche recruiter, if you are going to use one. They will be more > open to negotiation. > > Do your homework, don't be lazy. > > You have gone to agency becuase you are having toruble finding the > right people. Don't go to monkey's when you want to find gold. > > Sorry but I fight for the good recruitment agent, the ones who add > value to business's thorugh finding resources which are hard to find. > In my eyes there is definate value add, Ive seen it. > > Regards > > -- > SK > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Andrew Stone <[email protected]> > wrote: >> Rob, >> >> Your post is a good summary of why many people consider the recruitment >> model you describe as being 'broken'. >> >> The on-costs you point out can be avoided in many cases... lots of small >> businesses are exempt from payroll tax (Current threshold in NSW is >> $689,000) >> And many industry segments for larger corporates (media for one) often does >> not require PI and PL for Developers. >> >> Recruitment agencies tend to charge the insurance anyway as they have a >> discounted policy for n Developers and it becomes another place to hide the >> cream (and seems like a value add with a bit of sales talk). >> >> Your argument about low paying jobs is a bit ironic... if the offered rate >> was ~30% higher due to the absence of a recruitment agent... the job might >> be worth taking. >> >> Regards, >> Andrew Stone. >> >> >> >> On 30 July 2012 16:11, Rob <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I am a recruiter, and have had success with this board in placing >>> candidates in the market. I totally agree with what Ashley is saying in >>> relation to fee structures etc. I would like to elaborate upon the concept >>> of Margin, which may equate to a higher than 20% markup. I have no doubt >>> that everyone understands this, but just to be sure, as an example...margin >>> is the percentage of the charge rate, and markup is the percentage on the >>> cost...two totally different things....especially when oncosts are involved. >>> >>> For instance, if I was to charge a 15% margin on a candidate, who was >>> earning $100 per hour, I would have to charge the client $129...this ensures >>> that I am earning 15% margin. >>> >>> To the candidate, I am effectively putting on a 29% markup...BUT only >>> earning 15% margin (of the charge rate) >>> >>> This is where the confusion lies the difference between MARGIN and MARKUP >>> >>> >>> ie. for $129 charge, 15% margin ($19), 10% oncost (workers comp, PI/PL, >>> Payroll Tax), and $100 for the candidate >>> >>> $100 + $10 + $19 = $129...the recruiter is earning 15% margin of the >>> charge rate. >>> >>> If we reverse it from a charge of $100 at a margin of 15%....I would earn >>> $15, oncost $7, candidate rate $77....this is a margin of 15% of the charge >>> rate....but if you compare the $77 to the $100 charge, it is roughly a >>> 29-30% markup again. >>> >>> >>> So, if people are seeing 30% markups on their rates, please don't assume >>> that the recruiter is earning all of that....they aren't. On top of the >>> services of payrolling, recruiters take the risk of clients folding or not >>> paying, when we always pay our recruiters upon signed timesheets, regardless >>> if the client has paid or not....this of course saves the candidate from >>> having to chase payment (one more worry they don't have to deal with). AND >>> YES, sometimes clients do fold or don't pay.....which means as a recruiter, >>> you are out of pocket for the total candidate rate + oncosts and of course >>> with the margin that you have lost as well. Once had a client not pay for a >>> candidate for two months, they folded, ...so lost whole lot of money. Some >>> candidates may laugh and say, well them's the breaks....and well, I would >>> have to agree....but we do charge a fee for a service and the risk >>> associated where there is essentially no risk to the candidate in terms of >>> non-payment (with me anyway) >>> >>> Also, 15% or there abouts, in the scheme of things, with the amount of >>> payroll at risk, is not overly expensive (we currently have a yearly payroll >>> of about $1.5million per year give or take - money we pay out and hope to >>> get back - this is small for the market).....I have recruited for some of >>> the big4 and some of their charge-outs for their permanent employees are >>> amazing...we are talking 100-200% sometimes. >>> >>> So, if you are on a contract through a recruiter, and you are getting paid >>> on time for the work you are doing and the pay is correct (no hassles or >>> problems each week)...then this is a good thing and is part of the service >>> for that 15% margin that they earn. >>> >>> I firmly agree with Ashley that rule of thumb contract is roughly 20-30% >>> increase on a permanent salary...so if you are on $100 per hour, divide that >>> by 1.25 and you will get your equivalent permanent comparative rate which >>> can easily translate into a permanent salary package...roughly $115k >>> >>> EVERYONE, regardless of industry or skill needs to separate job worth from >>> personal worth. ie, if a CEO hit rock bottom and could only get a job as a >>> cleaner, he would only be paid a cleaners salary, even though he is worth a >>> CEO salary. >>> >>> So, if you are getting hit up for low paying roles, that is what the job >>> is worth to the employer, if you feel that it is too low, then don't go for >>> it (sometimes employers try their luck)....as recruiters we need to keep in >>> constant contact with candidates as their situations change and sometimes I >>> have had candidates go for lower rate jobs (rare, but it does happen). If >>> you are the best Ruby developer in the world, and you are worth $1000 per >>> hour but only $50 per hour roles are available, then you have to make a >>> judgement call based upon job worth to personal worth....ie you can say "Im >>> worth $1000 per hour and not doing that" and don't work and get zero income, >>> or you could have income by working at $50 per hour....extreme example I >>> know, but hopefully highlights the point I am trying to make. >>> >>> Yes, there are cowboys in the industry, as with any industry, but like >>> Ashley said, there are some good recruiters out there that know their >>> markets well, and network hard to find out who, what, when, where, why and >>> how........, without finding that information out, they can't provide >>> candidates jobs nor can they provide clients candidates....hence the need to >>> call people...many many many many people :) >>> >>> >>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 4:02:19 PM UTC+10, Ashley P wrote: >>>> >>>> Chances are they might be :) >>>> >>>> But we aren't all bad! >>>> >>>> If you are a Ruby developer chances are you've probably seen my name >>>> before either on Seek, at Ruby meet-ups or on one of those pesky Linked-in >>>> invites I send around. I really like the Ruby community and have a passion >>>> for working with developers to find them cool jobs. >>>> >>>> That being said recruitment gets a bad name especially amongst the Ruby >>>> community. I'm here to defend our reputation but also to acknowledge our >>>> flaws. >>>> >>>> Many recruiters do have no idea when it comes to development roles. They >>>> throw out buzz words like 'Apache' or 'Object Oriented' to make it look >>>> like >>>> they know what they are talking about. >>>> >>>> That being said a recruiter can often be of use. They can present >>>> opportunities that you wouldn't have heard about, discuss potential career >>>> movements or even help with your resume and skills training programs. >>>> >>>> Sure as a quality developer you could probably find a good job yourself. >>>> But are you sure it's the best job!!? Use your own networks in addition to >>>> a >>>> recruiter to expand the pool of jobs and find yourself in the best job you >>>> can! >>>> >>>> Tips on dealing with recruiters: >>>> >>>> 1. Don't only use a recruiter. Use your own networks as well. Come up >>>> with an many opportunities as you can yourself and then use a recruiter or >>>> 2 >>>> to expand your opportunities >>>> 2. Don't be pushed around on Salary/Rate. Know what you're worth. Be open >>>> with your salary with a friend or former colleague to know what your worth >>>> and stick to it. (A common tactic is to ask people what they were on >>>> previously and hold them to a salary near this. You shouldn't fall for it. >>>> Be honest about what you were previously on but let the recruiter / hiring >>>> manager know that due to your research you believe the market rate to be X >>>> and that you are hoping for a figure around that mark.) >>>> 3. Ask who the client is. Often a recruiter will want to chat to you a >>>> bit first however, it is totally within your right to ask who the >>>> recruiters >>>> client is after an initial chat to determine your suitability >>>> 4. Remember your in control of the process. If you don't like a specific >>>> recruiter don't use him/her. In fact it's your right to call up and say I >>>> don't want you representing me to X. >>>> >>>> Can a recruiter really help me? >>>> >>>> Yes and no. It really depends on the relationships the recruiter has >>>> built. >>>> If the recruiter is blindly sending CV's around town without having met >>>> the hiring manager they really won't be of any use to you. >>>> That being said if they have built a strong relationship with the hiring >>>> manager their word often will decide whether or not you get an interview >>>> :). >>>> They can also act as a beneficial middle ground to assist in negotiations >>>> and getting things moving! >>>> >>>> >>>> Recruitment Rates >>>> >>>> Are recruitment rates too high? Well honestly yes they are fairly high >>>> but we are running a business and as you can all understand we need to make >>>> a profit! >>>> Also people don't realise the amount of effort we actually go to in >>>> providing a short-list. Many developers think I just simply called them, >>>> sent their resume to the company and got a massive cheque. What they don't >>>> realise is that to get that one person a job I had to look at over 400 >>>> resumes, speak to over 80 people and all for a 1/3 shot in actually filling >>>> a position. I work 8-6 and I'm a fairly quick worker! >>>> That being said yes some recruitment rates are too high and companies >>>> need to be smart on who they use. >>>> >>>> Anyway if your looking for a recruiter who loves the Ruby community and >>>> who actually cares about your career please give me a call. I won't screw >>>> you over and I'm available after-hours with bookings and all conversations >>>> are 100% confidential. >>>> >>>> [email protected]. 0404-590-975. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/0Q_9sWmaCaQJ. >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en.
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