Hi Stonie, I guess that is a "no". :)
My offer still stands if you wish to take it up...of course the response was long as I couldn't contact you directly about it...but I hope you appreciate I am being absolutely honest and willing to offer insight into an industry that many have some disdain for. I have tried in the past to completely understand what a developer goes through on a day to day basis, I was hoping one developer (someone with a vocal opinion on our industry) would do the same. Once again, give me a call anytime, if you have some questions about the industry....would save ZZ Top Beard length responses :) Cheers Rob On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 10:43:55 AM UTC+10, Stonie wrote: > > > This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard. >> > > And this thread is as long as ZZ Tops beards combined. ;) > > As primary antagonist I would like to call *case closed* in the > affirmative. > > Regards, > Stonie. > > > On 31 July 2012 09:51, Shamael Keng <[email protected]> wrote: > >> mind my spelling, written in a rush and in the middle of breakfast. >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Shamael Keng <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Hey guys. >> > >> > This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard. >> > >> > Frankly if you don't want to use a recuruiter dont. >> > >> > If you do want to use a recruiter, negotiate your terms to suit both >> > parties. simple. Its a service, you engage them when you need them and >> > for a reason. >> > >> > I you want to bash on an industry just becuase you pay invoices which >> > "seem" too much. refer to above point. >> > >> > In an industry which employs a lot of "questionable" types, if you >> > have a bad experiance, name and shame. I can't say I have been >> > exemplery, but all I can say is ive been trasnperant throughout the >> > whole process. >> > >> > "Is your recruiter screwing you?". Probably if you let him. The whole >> > argument in regards to the costing or cost structure recruiters use, >> > use a niche recruiter, if you are going to use one. They will be more >> > open to negotiation. >> > >> > Do your homework, don't be lazy. >> > >> > You have gone to agency becuase you are having toruble finding the >> > right people. Don't go to monkey's when you want to find gold. >> > >> > Sorry but I fight for the good recruitment agent, the ones who add >> > value to business's thorugh finding resources which are hard to find. >> > In my eyes there is definate value add, Ive seen it. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > -- >> > SK >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Andrew Stone < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Rob, >> >> >> >> Your post is a good summary of why many people consider the recruitment >> >> model you describe as being 'broken'. >> >> >> >> The on-costs you point out can be avoided in many cases... lots of >> small >> >> businesses are exempt from payroll tax (Current threshold in NSW is >> >> $689,000) >> >> And many industry segments for larger corporates (media for one) often >> does >> >> not require PI and PL for Developers. >> >> >> >> Recruitment agencies tend to charge the insurance anyway as they have a >> >> discounted policy for n Developers and it becomes another place to >> hide the >> >> cream (and seems like a value add with a bit of sales talk). >> >> >> >> Your argument about low paying jobs is a bit ironic... if the offered >> rate >> >> was ~30% higher due to the absence of a recruitment agent... the job >> might >> >> be worth taking. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Andrew Stone. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 30 July 2012 16:11, Rob <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi all, >> >>> >> >>> I am a recruiter, and have had success with this board in placing >> >>> candidates in the market. I totally agree with what Ashley is saying >> in >> >>> relation to fee structures etc. I would like to elaborate upon the >> concept >> >>> of Margin, which may equate to a higher than 20% markup. I have no >> doubt >> >>> that everyone understands this, but just to be sure, as an >> example...margin >> >>> is the percentage of the charge rate, and markup is the percentage on >> the >> >>> cost...two totally different things....especially when oncosts are >> involved. >> >>> >> >>> For instance, if I was to charge a 15% margin on a candidate, who was >> >>> earning $100 per hour, I would have to charge the client $129...this >> ensures >> >>> that I am earning 15% margin. >> >>> >> >>> To the candidate, I am effectively putting on a 29% markup...BUT only >> >>> earning 15% margin (of the charge rate) >> >>> >> >>> This is where the confusion lies the difference between MARGIN and >> MARKUP >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ie. for $129 charge, 15% margin ($19), 10% oncost (workers comp, >> PI/PL, >> >>> Payroll Tax), and $100 for the candidate >> >>> >> >>> $100 + $10 + $19 = $129...the recruiter is earning 15% margin of the >> >>> charge rate. >> >>> >> >>> If we reverse it from a charge of $100 at a margin of 15%....I would >> earn >> >>> $15, oncost $7, candidate rate $77....this is a margin of 15% of the >> charge >> >>> rate....but if you compare the $77 to the $100 charge, it is roughly a >> >>> 29-30% markup again. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> So, if people are seeing 30% markups on their rates, please don't >> assume >> >>> that the recruiter is earning all of that....they aren't. On top of >> the >> >>> services of payrolling, recruiters take the risk of clients folding >> or not >> >>> paying, when we always pay our recruiters upon signed timesheets, >> regardless >> >>> if the client has paid or not....this of course saves the candidate >> from >> >>> having to chase payment (one more worry they don't have to deal >> with). AND >> >>> YES, sometimes clients do fold or don't pay.....which means as a >> recruiter, >> >>> you are out of pocket for the total candidate rate + oncosts and of >> course >> >>> with the margin that you have lost as well. Once had a client not pay >> for a >> >>> candidate for two months, they folded, ...so lost whole lot of money. >> Some >> >>> candidates may laugh and say, well them's the breaks....and well, I >> would >> >>> have to agree....but we do charge a fee for a service and the risk >> >>> associated where there is essentially no risk to the candidate in >> terms of >> >>> non-payment (with me anyway) >> >>> >> >>> Also, 15% or there abouts, in the scheme of things, with the amount of >> >>> payroll at risk, is not overly expensive (we currently have a yearly >> payroll >> >>> of about $1.5million per year give or take - money we pay out and >> hope to >> >>> get back - this is small for the market).....I have recruited for >> some of >> >>> the big4 and some of their charge-outs for their permanent employees >> are >> >>> amazing...we are talking 100-200% sometimes. >> >>> >> >>> So, if you are on a contract through a recruiter, and you are getting >> paid >> >>> on time for the work you are doing and the pay is correct (no hassles >> or >> >>> problems each week)...then this is a good thing and is part of the >> service >> >>> for that 15% margin that they earn. >> >>> >> >>> I firmly agree with Ashley that rule of thumb contract is roughly >> 20-30% >> >>> increase on a permanent salary...so if you are on $100 per hour, >> divide that >> >>> by 1.25 and you will get your equivalent permanent comparative rate >> which >> >>> can easily translate into a permanent salary package...roughly $115k >> >>> >> >>> EVERYONE, regardless of industry or skill needs to separate job worth >> from >> >>> personal worth. ie, if a CEO hit rock bottom and could only get a job >> as a >> >>> cleaner, he would only be paid a cleaners salary, even though he is >> worth a >> >>> CEO salary. >> >>> >> >>> So, if you are getting hit up for low paying roles, that is what the >> job >> >>> is worth to the employer, if you feel that it is too low, then don't >> go for >> >>> it (sometimes employers try their luck)....as recruiters we need to >> keep in >> >>> constant contact with candidates as their situations change and >> sometimes I >> >>> have had candidates go for lower rate jobs (rare, but it does >> happen). If >> >>> you are the best Ruby developer in the world, and you are worth $1000 >> per >> >>> hour but only $50 per hour roles are available, then you have to make >> a >> >>> judgement call based upon job worth to personal worth....ie you can >> say "Im >> >>> worth $1000 per hour and not doing that" and don't work and get zero >> income, >> >>> or you could have income by working at $50 per hour....extreme >> example I >> >>> know, but hopefully highlights the point I am trying to make. >> >>> >> >>> Yes, there are cowboys in the industry, as with any industry, but like >> >>> Ashley said, there are some good recruiters out there that know their >> >>> markets well, and network hard to find out who, what, when, where, >> why and >> >>> how........, without finding that information out, they can't provide >> >>> candidates jobs nor can they provide clients candidates....hence the >> need to >> >>> call people...many many many many people :) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 4:02:19 PM UTC+10, Ashley P wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Chances are they might be :) >> >>>> >> >>>> But we aren't all bad! >> >>>> >> >>>> If you are a Ruby developer chances are you've probably seen my name >> >>>> before either on Seek, at Ruby meet-ups or on one of those pesky >> Linked-in >> >>>> invites I send around. I really like the Ruby community and have a >> passion >> >>>> for working with developers to find them cool jobs. >> >>>> >> >>>> That being said recruitment gets a bad name especially amongst the >> Ruby >> >>>> community. I'm here to defend our reputation but also to acknowledge >> our >> >>>> flaws. >> >>>> >> >>>> Many recruiters do have no idea when it comes to development roles. >> They >> >>>> throw out buzz words like 'Apache' or 'Object Oriented' to make it >> look like >> >>>> they know what they are talking about. >> >>>> >> >>>> That being said a recruiter can often be of use. They can present >> >>>> opportunities that you wouldn't have heard about, discuss potential >> career >> >>>> movements or even help with your resume and skills training programs. >> >>>> >> >>>> Sure as a quality developer you could probably find a good job >> yourself. >> >>>> But are you sure it's the best job!!? Use your own networks in >> addition to a >> >>>> recruiter to expand the pool of jobs and find yourself in the best >> job you >> >>>> can! >> >>>> >> >>>> Tips on dealing with recruiters: >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. Don't only use a recruiter. Use your own networks as well. Come up >> >>>> with an many opportunities as you can yourself and then use a >> recruiter or 2 >> >>>> to expand your opportunities >> >>>> 2. Don't be pushed around on Salary/Rate. Know what you're worth. Be >> open >> >>>> with your salary with a friend or former colleague to know what your >> worth >> >>>> and stick to it. (A common tactic is to ask people what they were on >> >>>> previously and hold them to a salary near this. You shouldn't fall >> for it. >> >>>> Be honest about what you were previously on but let the recruiter / >> hiring >> >>>> manager know that due to your research you believe the market rate >> to be X >> >>>> and that you are hoping for a figure around that mark.) >> >>>> 3. Ask who the client is. Often a recruiter will want to chat to you >> a >> >>>> bit first however, it is totally within your right to ask who the >> recruiters >> >>>> client is after an initial chat to determine your suitability >> >>>> 4. Remember your in control of the process. If you don't like a >> specific >> >>>> recruiter don't use him/her. In fact it's your right to call up and >> say I >> >>>> don't want you representing me to X. >> >>>> >> >>>> Can a recruiter really help me? >> >>>> >> >>>> Yes and no. It really depends on the relationships the recruiter has >> >>>> built. >> >>>> If the recruiter is blindly sending CV's around town without having >> met >> >>>> the hiring manager they really won't be of any use to you. >> >>>> That being said if they have built a strong relationship with the >> hiring >> >>>> manager their word often will decide whether or not you get an >> interview :). >> >>>> They can also act as a beneficial middle ground to assist in >> negotiations >> >>>> and getting things moving! >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Recruitment Rates >> >>>> >> >>>> Are recruitment rates too high? Well honestly yes they are fairly >> high >> >>>> but we are running a business and as you can all understand we need >> to make >> >>>> a profit! >> >>>> Also people don't realise the amount of effort we actually go to in >> >>>> providing a short-list. Many developers think I just simply called >> them, >> >>>> sent their resume to the company and got a massive cheque. What they >> don't >> >>>> realise is that to get that one person a job I had to look at over >> 400 >> >>>> resumes, speak to over 80 people and all for a 1/3 shot in actually >> filling >> >>>> a position. I work 8-6 and I'm a fairly quick worker! >> >>>> That being said yes some recruitment rates are too high and companies >> >>>> need to be smart on who they use. >> >>>> >> >>>> Anyway if your looking for a recruiter who loves the Ruby community >> and >> >>>> who actually cares about your career please give me a call. I won't >> screw >> >>>> you over and I'm available after-hours with bookings and all >> conversations >> >>>> are 100% confidential. >> >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]. 0404-590-975. >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >>> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/0Q_9sWmaCaQJ. >> >>> >> >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> [email protected]. >> >>> For more options, visit this group at >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> [email protected]. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en. >> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rails-oceania/-/EiqSUYhS0dIJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en.
