There have always been subtle variations. Your story, Doug, mirrors what I said 
about top tubes on the 64’s: 62cm long in 2001. 60 cm long in 2007.

And yes, Hillbornes too: the very earliest green ones with cantis had longer 
TT’s than the sidepull/canti oranges that followed them in 2010.

I’ve bought a few Rivs since 2001, and in my experience, the rides of the later 
ones tend to be better. I trust their geometry tweaks.

-Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 27, 2018, at 9:49 AM, dougP <dougpn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There have been on-going subtle variations.  I tend to focus on the 58 cm 
> Atlantis since that's what I ride.  In the current chart, the gray one with 
> the old geos shows chainstays for a 58 cm Atlantis at 45.5 cm, which is what 
> my '03 has.  But in the May '17 chart, the clock in at 47 cm.  I believe 
> these would have been Waterford.  Now they're up to 53 cm.  So at least 3 
> variations.  
> 
> There could be similar slight differences on other models.  Evolution 
> happens.  
> 
> dougP
> 
>> On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 5:15:01 AM UTC-7, Bob Lovejoy wrote:
>> I do think there are are typos and/or oddities in the geometry charts, 
>> though, who knows, maybe with certain center pull brakes 55mm is possible.  
>> I think you are certainly right about the Tektro sidepulls though.  I get 
>> the impression that more goes into the recommended PBH/sizing chart than the 
>> actual geometry chart numbers.  I have not been mislead when using Riv's PBH 
>> recommendations but going deeper into the geometry numbers is not always the 
>> fun or even useful thing one imagines.
>> 
>> For reference, and maybe it is still there in the current mix, but here is 
>> the geometry chart from 2017:
>> https://web.archive.org/web/20170602082329/https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry
>> 
>> As far as really previous Sam geometries go, I cannot find the chart now but 
>> I believe top tubes were relatively longer in the v1's, that to better work 
>> with swept/upright bars.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 11:21:03 PM UTC-5, Adam in Indiana wrote:
>>> Anyone else notice that the new Homer has more tire clearance than a canti 
>>> Sam?  Or do you think that's a typo?  I don't recall Tektro 559's clearing 
>>> a 55mm...
>>> Also, anyone remember what the chainstay length on the previous Sam 
>>> generation was?
>>> 
> 
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