On Jun 5, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: > On Tue, 2012-06-05 at 15:41 -0700, dougP wrote: >> >> Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer >> as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises. >> The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less >> versatile a bike is. For me, one of the major attractions of >> Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis. There just isn't any >> ride I would hesitate to do because "my bike can't do that". > > But Grant is not a brilliant experimenter. When he did the low trail > fork experiment in Riv Reader he neglected to factor in one highly > significant variable (especially highly significant in the context of > low trail): tire width. He tried low trail with narrow tires and did > not like it. Although it was pointed out to him that wide tires add > pneumatic trail and one point of lowering geometric trail is to maintain > the balance and keep total trail reasonable, by that time his mind was > made up and he refused to try wider tires.
There are many factors that go into bike feel. Trail is only one of them and perhaps not even the most important. Trying to boil down how bikes ride to the notions of "low trail" vs "high trail" or "front-loading" vs "rear-loading" or "high BB" vs "low BB" etc. is something of a fool's errand. No one factor dominates. A "high trail" bike with a 75 degree head tube will feel different than a bike with same amount of trail and a 72 degree head tube; ditto "low trail" bikes. The math that describes a bike's handling is very complicated, not actually solved yet, and is right up there with jet aircraft dynamics. The important thing IMHO is that people find bikes that ride the way they like bikes to ride. That way they will ride more and will have fun. It's great that there are a variety of bike designs out there. I am glad the OP had a successful experiment and has found something that works better for him. To each their own. I have not liked any "low trail" bikes I have ridden. Some people love them and, who knows, I might ride one some day that I really like- there is no reason to rule that out. Jan is eloquent in his praises of them. I've never experienced the problems with "high trail" bikes that he and some other folks report. My "high trail" bikes don't "pull" in turns and I can change my line in the middle of a corner at will, maybe the result of many miles spent racing road races and criteriums on "high trail" bikes- I steer a bike with the saddle as much or more than the handlebars. What made me think about matching riding style to bike feel is that I have one bike- which I built and which came out with unintentionally high trail, due to the head tube steepening when I brazed up the frame- that feels dramatically better if I lean aggressively to corner like I am racing and feels weird if I try to corner by steering with the handlebars. And some things are even confusing- track bikes tend to have high trail (they are ridden pretty much in a straight line around the banking of a velodrome) and yet are typically praised for their nimbleness when, according to trail theory, they shouldn't be. The danger in any discussion comes when we confuse subjective preference with objective fact, and especially getting really attached to the "factuality" of one's beliefs and preferences- whether about bikes, politics or religion. FWIW my 1996 All-Rounder is a great handling bike with a front load (about 10 lbs has been the maximum) or a rear load (about 18 lbs in a Carradice Nelson), on 26 x 1.25 Paselas. I don't even know for sure whether it's "high" or "low" trail; my best estimate using straightedges ad tape and rulers and drawings on the floor is that it's about 55 mm with the current tires, so medium trail. Bigger tires would make it higher trail, smaller tires would make it lower trail. The Paselas at 1.25" seem to be the sweet spot with that bike. It's sort of like my old Volvo 240- really comfortable, sportier than you'd expect and astonishingly nimble. The best handling bike I have ever ridden is my "high trail" Ritchey with 700 x 25 tires, almost completely "telepathic" when riding it. So, I say ride whatcha like and works for you. The OP made a very clear discovery for himself with his bikes that will be very useful to him. Other people may find it useful and I say bravo for posting it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
