On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 5:54 PM, William <[email protected]> wrote: > Sorry you lost me. What's a red herring? >
If you mean, "what does the term 'red herring' mean", it is (at least for this conversation) an irrelevant instance offered in rebuttal. If you mean, "how is my example of a Marathon a red herring", it is that it is indeed fatter than a 32 mm Pasela, but from Schwalbe's description, it is not comparable in suppleness. > > I said if you compare tires of similar construction, narrower is not > faster. You are right, I missed that. The evidence to date shows that this is true at least within a certain range of pavement types and for a certain range of widths. I agree with "mounting evidence". > Paselas are a great example since they come in or have come in > 700x23,25,28,30,32,35,37. Among those tires, all with similar > construction, mounting evidence shows that there is remarkably little > difference in roll down speed or perceived effort to keep those tires > moving. I'm willing to extrapolate from your son's experiment with Somas to Paselas, so no contention there. I think we largely agree, though I am still not clearly informed about the difference that fatter makes in a family of supple tires for given surfaces and for a given amount of additional width. For example, I would like to see how much better a 32 mm Legere rolls on a given rough pavement than a 29 or a 26. The difference between a Mich Pro Race 2 at 25 and 23 was several places in rank, but as Jan says, as you get bigger, the differences get smaller. > > I know you run ~3" wide street tires, but we're talking about a Cannondale > touring bike. He can't run 60s. He should run the widest tire his bike > will take. You advised him to consider the narrower range of tires for his > bike, because that's faster, and I'm saying that is not the case. He could > run 25 paselas, and he could run 32 paselas. I'm saying the 32 paselas > would be no slower. > My point about the 60s is simply that fatter isn't always faster. > > The Soma New Express that is a close cousin of the Pasela is another great > example because that's the tire my son compared. He did extensive roll > down tests with 26x1.25 and 25x1.75 and there was no significant > difference. Wider is no slower if the tires are of similar construction. > Furthermore, lower pressure was no slower. We were down at <10psi, and we > could hear the tire squishing on the pavement, and yet the rolldown tests > showed that it was not measurably slower. I was shocked. > I have no quarrel with this, and it's an interesting addition to the knowledge corpus. Still, it involves one tire. Look at BQ's Spring '13 chart of rolldown efficiency. The point is, as with the Big Apples, that all is not always equal. > > Compare supple with stiff tires and then its night and day. You me and > Jan all agree on that. > We do agree. FWIW, I once objected to a statement of Jan about fatter being faster, and he wrote back agreeing that it is indeed first and foremost casing quality that determines rolldown results. I agree that the evidence seems to indicate that, universally, fatter is not slower within a tire family -- tho' I've been itching to see how 50 mm BAs compare to the 60s, or 35 mm Kojaks to 2.0's. All that being said, my consistently fastest bike, at least on open flat routes (higher fixed gear) and open hilly ones (very light wheels) has 650CX23 mm Michelin Pro Race 3s. Not exactly oranges to oranges, but I can push a slightly bigger (75") gear compared to 70") faster than I can on the heavier Ram with the 29 mm Parigi Roubaix. The improvement in climbing, especially, is consistent. So in addition to rolldown there is also acceleration. I am greatly hoping that the same tire in 25 will prove even faster, once I get around to replacing them. > > > > On Thursday, August 1, 2013 4:35:59 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> Yes, but this is a red herring, since we are talking about Marathons >> compared to Paselas, and folding Paselas at that. >> >> Sure, if you use his 42 mm 650B Extra Legeres you'll have bulk, pudge, >> and speed; but the narrower 622 (23, 26, 29, 32) models are also claimed to >> roll very well. >> >> Jan's (editor of BQ) comparos show very clearly that is is casing quality >> -- ie, suppleness -- that is the principle factor in low rolling >> resistance; see the Spring '13 issue. In fact one of the fastest >> conventional tires was the Michelin Pro Race 2, the 25 mm model. Even the >> slower 23 mm model was in the top third, IIRC. >> >> I ride fat tires on pavement; I mean very fat tires: the Big Apple >> Liteskins on my Fargo's fat (44 mm rims) wheelset measure 61 mm, and the >> older wire beads measured 65 mm. And I ride them at low pressure: as low as >> 12 psi in front. And the BAs roll well for their bulk. But man, let me tell >> you that neither roll faster on pavement, rough or smooth, than a Pasela! >> >> FWIW, a very nice rolling tire with puncture belt is the 622 X 35 Kojak; >> but that has no tread. >> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 5:21 PM, William <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> "I want to point out the option of narrower -- meaning faster or, less >>> effort required -- tires." >>> >>> Mounting evidence says this is not the case. Narrower is empirically >>> not faster in controlled experiments. Famously by Jan Heine, and repeated >>> on a much smaller scale by my 6th grade son in his science experiment. His >>> data showed that wider tires of similar construction are no slower and that >>> lower pressure is also no slower. He won the science fair. >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, August 1, 2013 4:03:58 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: >>> >>>> I agree to a point, though I've commuted on bad city pavement (eastern >>>> Copper, NE, and adjacent streets, including the Fairgrounds, here in ABQ, >>>> NM -- pretty rough stuff) with Paselas, and in fact much narrower, with no >>>> problems wet or dry (175, with loads). I want to point out the option of >>>> narrower -- meaning faster or, less effort required -- tires. >>>> >>>> I do realize that we each choose the compromise that best suits our >>>> tastes. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Christopher Chen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, this is true, Patrick, but he said he rides on some crappy (or >>>>> poor) roads, where volume matters. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Patrick Moore <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I believe -- this is a suggestion, not a pronouncement -- that tread >>>>>> and rubber quality are more important than width. >>>>>> >>>>>> Come to think of it, I also commuted with 26X32 mm Paselas and, while >>>>>> I did not find these sturdy, they posed no problem in the rain. Note >>>>>> that I >>>>>> don't ride often in the rain, but when I do, it tends to be in downpours, >>>>>> and our runoff system is deliberately primitive, meaning that when it >>>>>> rains, water gushes down the sides of streets. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Christopher Chen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I would ride the biggest Schwalbe Marathon's you can. I currently >>>>>>> run 700C x 38, but I think your C-dale will probably only take up to >>>>>>> 28s? >>>>>>> In either case, I've done some "accidental" test runs, and they're >>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>> good (as long as you stay on the tread--the sidewalls don't corner too >>>>>>> well >>>>>>> on wet cobblestones :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Peter <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone. Please tell me what tire and width of tire you'd >>>>>>>> recommend for a novice commuter riding on wet (rainy) and poor city >>>>>>>> streets. I find that I don't feel very safe on wet streets and thus >>>>>>>> suffer >>>>>>>> a loss of confidence unless I ride quite slowly--obviously I want to >>>>>>>> keep >>>>>>>> riding and improve my skills. At the moment I'm gearing up to buy a new >>>>>>>> bike from Rivendell, but haven't yet decided on the model. My current >>>>>>>> bike >>>>>>>> is a Cannondale touring bike. >>>>>>>> Many thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups**.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group** >>>>>>>> /rbw-owners-bunch <http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou** >>>>>>>> ps/opt_out <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> "I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups**.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group** >>>>>>> /rbw-owners-bunch <http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch>. >>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> http://resumespecialties.com/**i**ndex.html<http://resumespecialties.com/index.html> >>>>>> patric...@**resumespecialties.**com >>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/**pat**rickmooreresumespec/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Albuquerque, NM >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups**.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group** >>>>>> /rbw-owners-bunch <http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch>. >>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups**.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group** >>>>> /rbw-owners-bunch <http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch>. >>>>> For more options, visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://resumespecialties.com/**i**ndex.html<http://resumespecialties.com/index.html> >>>> patric...@**resumespecialties.**com >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/**pat**rickmooreresumespec/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Albuquerque, NM >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com. >>> Visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/**group/rbw-owners-bunch<http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch> >>> . >>> For more options, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://resumespecialties.com/**index.html<http://resumespecialties.com/index.html> >> patric...@**resumespecialties.com >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/**patrickmooreresumespec/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/> >> >> >> Albuquerque, NM >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html [email protected] http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Albuquerque, NM -- You received this message because you are subscribed 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