|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I will now do something that is rarely done in this forum: respond point by point. See below. On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 07:58:19 -0500, you wrote: >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > >What a narrow, provincial, and entirely illogical assesment of the situation >in Israel. Nothing like starting off with ad hominem. >First of all it certainly makes much more sense (to me anyway) to lay blame >to fundamentalism and its "take no prisoners attitude" all the way around, >than to take a "poor little Israel against the cruel world" approach. For >one thing, you're outnumbered, and while that may appeal to some peoples >self serving sense of histrionics and martyrdom, it is a losing proposition. I can see that you didn't actually _read_ my response to Mr. Kent, or at the least you didn't fully understand what I wrote. My response to Mr. Kent was about his comparison between the centuries long Christian anti-Semitism with the modern day threat of Muslim anti-Semitism that Hank had addressed in his original article that prompted this thread. That being said I will now address your points: I agree that Fundamentalism in ALL its forms is a scourge upon mankind, but Israel was not created from a sense of Fundamentalism, although after 60 years of struggle, as in most cases that are similar, Fundamentalism is gaining a stronghold there. However the greatest threat TO Israel stems directly from Muslim Fundamentalism in its purest form. And there is NO Jew anywhere especially in Israel, that I have met or otherwise corresponded with that takes the attitude "poor little Israel against the world", an insulting idea. The support for Israel that I, and many others, Jew and non-Jew alike have stems from a sense of _justice_, sir. The fact that "we" are outnumbered, as you say is of course uncontestable, but so it has _always_ been, and if you had any idea what Jewish sensibilities are all about you would understand the pride we have for having survived for as long as we have, through not only the Holocaust, but also the pogroms in Russia, the Crusades I & II, the Roman crucifixions, et. al. >Second, history, Jewish or otherwise, doesn't pivot on the holocaust. Nazi >Germanys cruel coldblooded murder of six /nine/ thirteen million innocents >can never be avenged; and even though, of all the genocidal mass murders in >recorded history, it takes the cake for sheer malevolence and evil, it is >neither the most recent nor the most deadly. Again you show a lack of understanding of the Jewish people, in general terms. For many of us, especially those, like myself who had relatives in Auschwitz, (my father), who only had one set, or many times no grandparents at all, or for those still alive who lived through that time, history does indeed "pivot" on the Holocaust. The fact that you don't, or won't understand that shows a lack of compassion with those people, which of course takes no compassion away from others, like the Armenians or Cambodians who have suffered similarly. From your statements above it causes me to believe that you think that Jews are singularly obsessed with the Holocausts effects on only Jews, which again is not even close to being true. In every Holocaust book I have read, in every movie I have seen, there is always depictions of the other groups targeted for extinction by the Nazis (which, of course would have been _everyone_ other than the pure "Aryan" types of Nazi myth, had they been allowed to prevail). The fact is, however, is that the Jews were the _primary_ target of the Nazis. (Read Lucy Dawidowicz' "The War Against the Jews") And your statement about the Holocaust not being the most deadly, also belies a misreading of history on your part. In no other situation, Stalin and Mao, Cambodia and even the most recent in Rwanda and Bosnia, has no _single_ ethnic group been targeted for _extinction_, or come as close to that as the Jews in WWII. Nor has _technology_ been so coldly devised to accomplish this task. But this is a silly argument anyway, dead is dead. >http://www.rkba.org/research/jpfo/lethal-laws.reviewed.nyls Would you mind explaining what the hell your take, obviously, on gun control laws have to do with the discussion of Christian vs. Muslim anti-Semitism as threat to Jews??!! This is a political argument best discussed in other fora, and there are plenty for it. >Have Jews in general been targeted historically wherever they have lived in >the world since the diaspora? Yes, as far as I know. Gee, thanks for that. > Is there a single >reason? Uh, yes, it's known as _anti-Semitism_. And it is not rational nor reasonable, and Jews are not at fault, if you didn't know. > Maybe, but I doubt very much that it has anything to do with "we're >just smarter and more succesful than anybody else" [although that attitude >alone would get you killed in some of the neighborhoods I've lived in, >regardless of ethnicity] and probably more to do with maintaining a visible >minority identity in places that had no scruples about murdering those who >were differrent. Where the hell did "we're just smarter and more successful than anybody else " come from, hmmm? Who says THAT other than the anti-Semites? And are you saying that Jews, or any other minority for that matter, should shed their identity anywhere, just to stay alive? How about changing the actions and attitudes of those that are shallow enough, and ignorant enough to want to do those minorities _harm_ simply because they are different? Wouldn't that be a better place to spend your energies than attempting to change the _victims_ of ethnic and religious intolerance? Or do you think that, say, African Americans ought not to have a "visible minority identity" in the United States? Sheesh. > In fact, that behaviour is going on as we speak in many >places in the world today, most notably Africa. It is not a uniquely Jewish >problem; its just that Jews have persisted, and kept going from one place to >another, looking for a peaceful homeland, which itself has created a unique >historical phenomenon among all the minorities in the world. You have answered many of your _own_ questions in the above paragraph. Or do you think it is a bad thing that Jews, and as you say, others, should be looking for a peaceful homeland? >The question is, is Israel that homeland? Zionists believe it is; some >Orthodox jews believe emphatically that it is not, at this time in any case. >http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm The question is not IS Israel that homeland, the question is will the rest of the world who _voted_ that it IS the homeland back in '48 (other than the intransigent Arab world, y'know those who quote the "Protocols" and keep pictures of Hitler on their walls) allow Israel to _remain_ that homeland by _requiring_ Arab nations to simply leave little Israel _alone_. After all if Israel were left alone (back to my question to Mr. Kent, and now by extension, to you) do you honestly believe that Israel would be a threat to those Arab neighbors, or perhaps a boon to the entire Middle East area? I think the latter. And anyone can find people within a group that disagree with the group at large, just as one can find African Americans who don't like Black folk. Think about it. Neuterei Karta has been used by anti-Semites widely as fodder _against_ Jews. Of course all are welcome to their opinions, it doesn't mean that those opinions are necessarily correct, and it is my firm belief that Israel ain't goin' nowhere. >It can certainly be argued that present day Israel was created whole from a >combination of the aspirations of groups of primarily european Ashkenazi >Jews, which predate the Nazi holocaust by a good 200 years, and the postwar >anti semitism and gross colonialism of the US, England, France, and to a >lesser extent, Soviet Russia. >http://www.mideastweb.org/britzion.htm It is obviously true that the desire to return to the Land of Israel was a long lived dream of most if not all Jews throughout the Diaspora. Witness, "Next year in Jerusalem." But it is also true that _because_ of Hitler and the Holocaust that dream was finally realized. To deny that is a denial of history. And the fact is, is that Ahkenazi's comprise the largest portion of modern day Jewry, so your argument there falls flat. >Has it been a good marriage? History is busy judging that right now. Is _any_ marriage good? History judges them all. In the meantime how's about the Jews having just a LITTLE bit of peaceful existence, eh? >What do I think? I think that for the cost in lives and money, New Jersey >could be the real garden state; but that's not the issue is it? What it >boils down to is fundamentalism, pure and simple, and that will be, if any >single thing can be, the undoing of life as we know it. > To reiterate, Israel was not founded upon Fundamentalism, but Secularism and Socialism, if you didn't know, and there are still vestiges of that left. But the further you push the Jews, or ANY religious group (witness modern day Islam, e.g.) the farther _towards_ Fundamentalism you push them. Leave them to flourish and Fundamentalism DIES. Now perhaps, we can get on with the discussion of Muslim anti-Semitism. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 5:51 AM >Subject: Re: [RHETORIC] Religious Hate > > >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > >Mr. Kent, > >It is not that I disagree that past Christian anti-Semitism was horrible and >long-lived and led to the Holocaust. Any student of history in the least >should know that much. What I take issue with is the _comparison_ with >Muslim anti-Semitism, which is what Hank's article was about. There is a >tenuous link between the two, but in present times it is Muslim >anti-Semitism that we are facing now (Mel Gibson and his Dad >notwithstanding.) And, IMO, it is the mix of Muslim anti-Semitism and >technology that pose the greatest danger to Jews everywhere _today_. As far >as killing and revenge killing is concerned I also tend to agree that it >truly can lead nowhere for either side, but, and I have posed this question >many times over the years, what would you have Israel do? Should she lie >down and not defend herself? And if Israel pulled out of the "occupied >territories" completely (something I have advocated for years, only to prove >a point!) do you honestly believe that attacks against Israel would cease? >It is my firm belief that if Israel were to pull back to the pre-1967 >borders yesterday, that it would be viewed by Arabs in general and >Palestinians in particular as a sign of _weakness_, and that attacks would >_increase_ rather than cease. So, might you express what _you_ think >Israel's next move should be? > >And to reiterate, I am firmly against most if not all right wing thought, >but in tiny Israel's place with only _one_ real ally (I won't use the term >"friend") in the U.S. I, personally cannot see what else Israel should do, >other than trying to eliminate her enemies. As much as I abhor violence, I >understand that Israel's existence is _paramount_ considering the history of >her creation through the lens of the Holocaust. It is my belief that if >Israel did not exist Jews everywhere might not either. And considering the >percentage of the world's population that calls itself Jewish (approx. 15-17 >_million_ out of over 6 billion people!) and also considering the level of >violence elsewhere in the world I find the attention given to Israel wholly >disproportionate to reality. > ------------------------------------- I can picture in my mind a world without war, A world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. Jack Handey ------------------------------------- Scott All that is necessary for Evil to triumph, is for good people to do nothing. --- / o o \ PNEWS Topic Specific Portals (Vortals) ===OO=====OO===========================================[1] http://pnews.org/NWO/phpnuke/ (Piss Off George Portal) [2] http://pnews.org/MEP/phpnuke/ (Myth Busters Portal) [3] http://g0lem.net/PHP/phpnuke/ (Insane Planet Portal) [4] http://g0lem.net/HTH/phpnuke/ (Wacko World Portal) [5] http://g0lem.net/AAA/phpnuke/ (Bad-Ass Truth Portal) [6] http://pnews.org/AAA/phpnuke/ (Naked Truth Portal) [7] http://pnews.org/portal/ (PNEWS Portal) [8] http://g0lem.net/portal/ (TheGolemsPortal) ======================================================= \_/ \_/
