Hi Leo, all,
How come we can pretend that the RIPE community is open, inclusive,
transparent, etc., if when we do this kind of work, we don't allow volunteer
participants to join? How come we can have a CoC that must be respected by all
if since day one on the work for this, somebody that volunteered has been
excluded?
Let me explain, because only the chairs and the CoC TF knows the context of
this up to now.
On October 26th I asked to join the mailing list and the CoC TF. I got a
response on 9th November. In my request, I explained that I've made similar
work in other RIRs (in that case via policy proposals, still under discussion),
and I was during around 12 years the Sergeant-at-arms of the IETF (RFC3005), so
clearly, I've some experience on this work.
In the response I was told that the Chairs Team decided about the membership
and the CoC TF is not "empowered" to expand its own membership.
So, in summary, we can't enforce a CoC that has been generated in a
non-inclusive and in fact discriminatory way.
There was not any information, when the Task Force was created about "rules of
participation", "timing" or anything similar, and of course, there is NOTHING
in our existing rules, documents, etc., that provides chair or Task Force
members the right to EXCLUDE and DISCRIMINATE anyone. I've asked several times
to the CoC TF and the chairs about that, and the response, as it has been in
other topics such as the violation of the PDP has been "silence".
In Spanish we call this a "theater" or "mummery", I'm not sure if that
expression makes sense in English. We continuously talk about openness,
transparency and so on, but in reality, we have the chairs that do whatever
they want, without respecting rules (or actually, creating their own rules) and
ignoring volunteer participants. This is the way we want to encourage
participation for long-term participants? How come newcomers will trust that.
Let's be serious.
So, is this about getting only "friends" in a TF? How come we can pretend to be
inclusive?
I don't know in other countries, but in Spain, if you exclude someone from a
group or "club", without a clear previous explanation and engagement rules,
which of course, can't be against law, it is called a discrimination, and it is
an illegal act.
Besides that, which clearly should have a public and a clear explanation
provided (documents that authorize to exclude volunteers from a TF, documents
that allow chairs to ignore and don't publish policy proposals, etc.), I've the
following points.
0) Generic. I think every section/sub-section must be numbered, it helps to
follow the document, provide inputs, etc.
1) Rationale. I think it must be made explicit not only inclusivity, but also a
right balance with freedom of expression, openness, transparency and respect to
each participant language barriers and cultural differences.
2) Scope. The mailing list have the "forums" as an alternative way to
participate. I will not call that a messaging or chat. Maybe you should add a
bullet to cover any "communication app or web service". That will cover, I
think any way to communicate. Maybe with that wording is no longer necessary to
use "messaging or chat" but it is still helpful spell it out.
3) Scope. I don't understand why the PC needs to be consulted. Anything related
to the RIPE community must support the same CoC. Otherwise, we need to define
an AUP for the mailings list CoC for "a", CoC for "b", etc. If the goal is to
be generic for anything related to the community, this doesn't make sense to me.
4) People. When you say "contracted workers", is that including
"subcontractors" or need to be spelled out?
5) CoC and National Law. "The CoC Team or RIPE NCC staff may relay the report
or make their own if necessary" I don't think this is a matter for the CoC
Team, instead the CoC Team must report those cases to the RIPE NCC staff, and
the RIPE NCC, must report to authorities. Otherwise, if the NCC has knowledge
of a possible illegal activity, is acting as against the law and acting as an
abettor and it may have some liability. If an individual knowing about an
illegal activity doesn't report it, it is his/her own problem, but in the case
of an organization, it is a problem for all the involved "members", board,
staff, etc.
6) Unacceptable. We are missing language discrimination. We can't allow that
non-native speakers have difficulties to understand what is being discussed or
said, because, we have seen that already in several occasions, "presumed jokes
or jargon" are frequently used as attacks to non-native speakers.
7) Unacceptable. I don't think "calling people names" is clear for non-native
speakers. Is that not include in "insulting"? If telling someone "fat" is
within your understanding of "calling people names", it is the same as
insulting. In my opinion, having a CoC that uses a non-inclusive language, it
is a very bad sign of what we want to enforce ... Is not that bullying? I think
it may be clearer to use "Insulting or bullying someone in anyway", instead of
"insulting someone" and then you don't need the "calling people names". Note
that my comment here may be wrong because I'm not even sure myself about what
it means "calling people names".
8) Unacceptable. "Deliberately outing private details about someone without
their consent" I will suggest replacing with "Deliberately outing personal data
about someone without their consent" I think it is including "more" aspects.
Again, this may be my English understanding from how I will say that in Spanish.
9) Unacceptable. "Pushing someone to drink or take drugs". I understand that it
is a way to make it explicit, but pushing someone to smoke or eat something
that he/she doesn't likes/wants, is the same. Maybe a more generic sentence
such as "Pushing someone to do any action that he/she doesn't want".
10) I'm missing a few things which I believe are extremely important and should
be made explicit:
a) Spam, non-solicited information, collecting emails from participant.
b) Using language or expression that non-native may not understand.
c) On the other way around, the CoC Team should consider cultural and
language differences, otherwise they may miss-interpret something that I'm
saying following my native language or common cultural ways and apply wrongly
the CoC.
11) I'm also missing something that I believe is key to have included in the
same document. What actions can be taken in case of CoC violation. Can those be
progressive? For example, if you send an unsolicited email to a list, or
interrupt someone presentation, a first-time warning should be sufficient, but
if you insist, in the case of a mailing list or similar "communication mean",
you may restrict posting rights or moderate for a certain number of weeks and
if it comes back, progressively increase the restriction period. In a meeting,
or videoconference, you just ask him/her to abandon that session or the full
meeting?
In fact, as more I think about that, I believe that the reporting procedures,
CoC Team and actions against the violation of the CoC should be in the same
document. If not, every section and especially unacceptable behaviors should be
numbered, because I don't think all the actions may have the same level of
"severity".
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 18/3/21 18:22, "ripe-list en nombre de Leo Vegoda"
<[email protected] en nombre de [email protected]> escribió:
Dear RIPE community,
There has been relatively little feedback on ths draft Code of Conduct
so far. We would be grateful if you could share any comments on the
RIPE Discussion
List by Friday, 2 April 2021. We welcome suggested changes, but if you
don’t see problems with the draft then statements of support are also
helpful. The RIPE Chair Team will evaluate your comments and determine
whether there is consensus on this draft or additional work is needed.
Many thanks,
Leo Vegoda
On behalf of the RIPE Code of Conduct TF
On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 5:02 AM Leo Vegoda <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Dear RIPE community,
>
> An updated draft RIPE Code of Conduct (CoC) is now published for your
> review. As this is intended to cover all participation within RIPE, it
> applies to interactions over the Internet, mailing lists, as well as
> in-person at RIPE Meetings.
>
> You can find the document here:
>
>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-documents/other-documents/ripe-code-of-conduct/
>
> This draft keeps most of the text in v3.0[1], which was developed by
> the RIPE Diversity TF. It also draws from CoCs that are in use in
> other communities, including the Python CoC[2]. The biggest change is
> that the updated draft covers scope and behaviour only. It doesn’t
> touch on process or the CoC Team – these aspects will be addressed in
> two separate documents that are still to come.
>
> Please review the draft and share any comments on the RIPE Discussion
> List by Friday, 2 April 2021. We welcome suggested changes, but if you
> don’t see problems with the draft then statements of support are also
> helpful. The RIPE Chair Team will evaluate your comments and determine
> whether there is consensus on this draft or additional work is needed.
>
> While we would prefer comments to be shared on the RIPE Discussion
> List, we recognise that some people might have feedback that they
> would like to share in private. If you want to provide feedback in
> private you can contact members of the CoC TF or the RIPE Chair Team
> directly.
>
> Some key changes in this version:
>
> - The goal of “a neutral, transparent and open framework for report
> handling” has been removed and will be covered in the upcoming
> document that describes process.
> - The scope is defined as “all participation in RIPE.”
> - Groups and events with separate governance from RIPE may adopt this
> CoC but will need to manage their own implementation.
> - A new section covers how the CoC relates to national law.
> - A new section lists desired behaviours along with an updated list of
> unacceptable behaviours. - Both lists are arranged alphabetically, to
> avoid suggesting a hierarchy.
>
> We look forward to reading your thoughts on the current draft.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Leo Vegoda
> On behalf of the RIPE Code of Conduct TF
>
> [1] RIPE Meeting Code of Conduct 3.0 - Draft
>
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/ripe-meetings/ripe-meeting-code-of-conduct-3-0-draft
> [2] Python Community Code of Conduct https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/
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