Re: [Frameworks] Editing negative

[Fred Camper]

On 10/22/2017 8:46 PM, Jeff Kreines wrote:
We did “cull” our original (usually reversal, back in the day) before 
workprinting, to save every last penny.


As did big-budget Hollywood films -- that was the difference between the 
director ending a take with a call of “cut,“ or “cut print.“


Cutting from workprint is a wonderful luxury. You can actually try out 
different things, and different shot lengths, without damaging the original.


I agree about conforming and dust. Dust is a problem with reversal too, 
but when cutting negative it is much worse -- a black speck against a 
bright field is annoying, but it does remind one of the material nature 
of celluloid. A white speck against dark, which happens all too often 
with negative, what is that about? A lot more noticeable than a black 
speck, and actually a little too revealing of the process, if you ask me...


Fred Camper
Chicago
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing negative

[Jeff Kreines]

We did “cull” our original (usually reversal, back in the day) before 
workprinting, to save every last penny.  

Bob uses the word “timing” below, but be aware that that word means both the 
pacing/duration of shots and how the lab color-corrects a shot when printing — 
the person who did that was called a “timer.”

Jeff


> On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Robert Withers  wrote:
> 
> Esperanza,
> What we used to do in the old days was make a print from the negative, then 
> edit that print changing order and timing, then match the negative to the 
> edited print. Negative is fairly delicate and picks up dirt easily. Though in 
> theory I guess you could rearrange takes. What would be your next step?
> Robert
> 
> withe...@earthlink.net 
> 
> 
> On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:00 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to
>>  frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com 
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>  https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks 
>> 
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>  frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com 
>> 
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>  frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com 
>> 
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. This week [October 21 - 29, 2017] in avant garde cinema
>>  (Flicker weekly listing)
>>   2. Editing neg? (Esperanza Collado)
>> 
>> From: Flicker weekly listing > >
>> Subject: [Frameworks] This week [October 21 - 29, 2017] in avant garde cinema
>> Date: October 21, 2017 10:54:55 AM EDT
>> To: >
>> Reply-To: Flicker weekly listing > >
>> 
>> 
>>  <>
>>  
>>  
>>   
>> 
>>
>>  
>> 
>> This week [October 21 - 29, 2017] in avant garde cinema
>> 
>> Enter your event announcements by going to the Flicker Weekly Listing Form 
>> .
>> 
>> 
>> To receive the weekly listing via email:  Subscribe 
>> .
>>  To unsubscribe see the link at the bottom of this email.
>> 
>> 
>> Light Movement 25: Snow and Ice Data  [October 23, 
>> Berlin, Germany]
>> 
>> NEW CALLS FOR ENTRIES:
>> Haverhill Film Festival (Haverhill, MA, USA; Deadline: June 01, 2018)
>>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1951.ann 
>> 
>> Drone Cinema Film Festival (San Francisco, CA, USA; Deadline: December 31, 
>> 2017)
>>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1952.ann 
>> 
>> Black Maria Film Festival (Jersey City, NJ, USA; Deadline: October 20, 2017)
>>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1953.ann 
>> 
>> 
>> DEADLINES APPROACHING:
>> Experiments in Cinema (Albuquerque, New Mexico USA; Deadline: November 01, 
>> 2017)
>>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1942.ann 
>> 
>> Events are sorted alphabetically BY CITY within each DATE.
>> 
>> This week's programs (summary):
>> 
>> Scope Presents: H. Schramm & N. Wiese / Patrick K.H. & A. Karaoulanis / 
>> Xname #376  [October 21, Berlin, Germany]
>> Soc. Sci. 127 & Little Boy - Danny Lyon In Person  
>> [October 21, Cambridge, Massachusetts]
>> Ism, Ism, Ism: Claudio Caldini In Person At Con+Tagion 
>>  [October 21, Los Angeles, California]
>> Media Archeology2  [October 21, San Francisco, 
>> California]
>> From the Files of Police Squad!  [October 22, 
>> Brooklyn, NY]
>> Willie - Danny Lyon In Person  [October 22, Cambridge, 
>> Massachusetts]
>> Claudio Caldini - 8mm Film Master - In Person!  
>> [October 22, Los Angeles, California]
>> Boxing On Film: Part 2: Short Film Program  [October 
>> 22, New York, NY]
>> Light Movement 25: Snow and Ice Data  [October 23, 
>> Berlin, Germany]
>> 

[Frameworks] Editing negative

[Robert Withers]

Esperanza,
What we used to do in the old days was make a print from the negative, then 
edit that print changing order and timing, then match the negative to the 
edited print. Negative is fairly delicate and picks up dirt easily. Though in 
theory I guess you could rearrange takes. What would be your next step?
Robert

withe...@earthlink.net


On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:00 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote:

> Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to
>   frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest..."
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. This week [October 21 - 29, 2017] in avant garde cinema
>  (Flicker weekly listing)
>   2. Editing neg? (Esperanza Collado)
> 
> From: Flicker weekly listing 
> Subject: [Frameworks] This week [October 21 - 29, 2017] in avant garde cinema
> Date: October 21, 2017 10:54:55 AM EDT
> To: 
> Reply-To: Flicker weekly listing 
> 
> 
>  
>   
>   
> 
> This week [October 21 - 29, 2017] in avant garde cinema
> 
> Enter your event announcements by going to the Flicker Weekly Listing Form.
> 
> 
> To receive the weekly listing via email: Subscribe. To unsubscribe see the 
> link at the bottom of this email.
> 
> 
> Light Movement 25: Snow and Ice Data [October 23, Berlin, Germany]
> 
> NEW CALLS FOR ENTRIES:
> Haverhill Film Festival (Haverhill, MA, USA; Deadline: June 01, 2018)
>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1951.ann
> Drone Cinema Film Festival (San Francisco, CA, USA; Deadline: December 31, 
> 2017)
>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1952.ann
> Black Maria Film Festival (Jersey City, NJ, USA; Deadline: October 20, 2017)
>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1953.ann
> 
> DEADLINES APPROACHING:
> Experiments in Cinema (Albuquerque, New Mexico USA; Deadline: November 01, 
> 2017)
>  http://hi-beam.net/cgi-bin/ann.pl?type=calls=1942.ann
> Events are sorted alphabetically BY CITY within each DATE.
> This week's programs (summary):
> 
> Scope Presents: H. Schramm & N. Wiese / Patrick K.H. & A. Karaoulanis / Xname 
> #376 [October 21, Berlin, Germany]
> Soc. Sci. 127 & Little Boy - Danny Lyon In Person [October 21, Cambridge, 
> Massachusetts]
> Ism, Ism, Ism: Claudio Caldini In Person At Con+Tagion [October 21, Los 
> Angeles, California]
> Media Archeology2 [October 21, San Francisco, California]
> From the Files of Police Squad! [October 22, Brooklyn, NY]
> Willie - Danny Lyon In Person [October 22, Cambridge, Massachusetts]
> Claudio Caldini - 8mm Film Master - In Person! [October 22, Los Angeles, 
> California]
> Boxing On Film: Part 2: Short Film Program [October 22, New York, NY]
> Light Movement 25: Snow and Ice Data [October 23, Berlin, Germany]
> Ism, Ism, Ism: Fantasmas CromáTicos: 8mm visions of Claudio Caldini [October 
> 23, Los Angeles, California]
> Canyon Cinema + Cca Film Present: Women Take off [October 24, San Francisco, 
> California]
> Visions | 25.10.17 + 26.10.17 | Robert Todd [October 25, Montréal]
> Newfilmmakers [October 25, New York, NY]
> Bravadoa: Terri Thomas and Scott Stark [October 27, Austin, TX]
> Ec: George  Mike Kuchar [October 27, New York, NY]
> Ec: George Landow, Aka Owen Land [October 28, New York, NY]
> Portland Pixilation: Heit + Popp + Hough [October 28, San Francisco, 
> California]
> Los NiÑOs Abandonados & Llanito [October 29, Cambridge, Massachusetts]
> Ism, Ism, Ism: Dark Matter: Collective, Singular and Parodic Resistance 
> [October 29, Los Angeles, California]
> Ec: Christopher Maclaine [October 29, New York, NY]
> 
> SATURDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2017
> 10/21
> Berlin, Germany: Spektrum
> http://spektrumberlin.de/program/events.html
> 20:00, Bürknerstraße 12s
> SCOPE PRESENTS: H. SCHRAMM & N. WIESE / PATRICK K.H. & A. KARAOULANIS / XNAME 
> #376
> AV performance night with: Heidrun Schramm & Nicolas Wiese - audiovisual 
> electroacoustic set premier performance of three new pieces: 1. Sightings > 
> Repercussions 2. International Scribblings 3. Pseudo_Code / Version 3.2 
> Heidrun Schramm and Nicolas Wiese have been performing together since 2004, 
> mostly in either audiovisual or site-specific, installative formats. Patrick 
> K.H. & Andreas Karaoulanis Each performance of Vienna-based Patrick K.-H. 
> (aka Anton Iakhontov) and Berlin-based bestbefore (aka Andreas Karaoulanis) 
> isn’t easily characterised or deconstructed — their absurd digital / analogue 
> hybrid concoctions are built upon dada collage approach in graphic and sonic 
> art and a need to 

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Eddy Falconer]

John sounds right to me. I had heard mostly of workprints always, too.


On Oct 22, 2017 5:44 PM, "Jeff Kreines"  wrote:

> I’m surprised that no one has mentioned workprint.  Most films were
> edited using workprints, a print off the uncut negative — and once that
> was “locked” the negative was conformed.  While some did edit original
> negatives, it was usually for speed — done in the early newsreel days,
> and in early TV news when they shot negative and inverted the polarity for
> broadcast.
>
> You can also have the negative transferred to digital files with the edge
> numbers in a “flex” file that some editing programs can use, but this
> gets more complex than you will want.
>
> Jeff Kreines
> Kinetta
> j...@kinetta.com
> kinetta.com
>
>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Jeff Kreines]

I’m surprised that no one has mentioned workprint.  Most films were edited 
using workprints, a print off the uncut negative — and once that was “locked” 
the negative was conformed.  While some did edit original negatives, it was 
usually for speed — done in the early newsreel days, and in early TV news when 
they shot negative and inverted the polarity for broadcast.

You can also have the negative transferred to digital files with the edge 
numbers in a “flex” file that some editing programs can use, but this gets more 
complex than you will want.

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
j...@kinetta.com
kinetta.com


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Christopher Ball]

Yes, and based on experience, if you get one frame out of sync somewhere its a 
nightmare to fix!

  Original Message  
From: djte...@gmail.com
Sent: October 22, 2017 5:54 PM
To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com
Reply-to: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

I wouldn’t suggest conforming any negative you care about yourself unless you 
have plenty of experience both with handling negative and with a glue splicer. 
Any dust or whatever that gets on the neg will show up in the print. It takes 
technique to scrape just the right amount of emulsion off correctly, apply the 
glue properly, and so on.

Rather than contract a lab to do the work, I’d look for some indie maker with 
experience and an editing bench who’s willing to do it. They should be cheaper 
than a lab, and be more communicative, I’d hope anyway…

___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Dave Tetzlaff]

I wouldn’t suggest conforming any negative you care about yourself unless you 
have plenty of experience both with handling negative and with a glue splicer. 
Any dust or whatever that gets on the neg will show up in the print. It takes 
technique to scrape just the right amount of emulsion off correctly, apply the 
glue properly, and so on.

Rather than contract a lab to do the work, I’d look for some indie maker with 
experience and an editing bench who’s willing to do it. They should be cheaper 
than a lab, and be more communicative, I’d hope anyway…


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

[Frameworks] news from Catalonia

[Eugeni Bonet]

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Esperanza Collado]

Interesting to know this. Thanks Pip, for bringing it out. I'll make sure I
ask my lab, as I actually don't have any cement equipment (yet). Good to
know it's affordable too!

2017-10-22 17:01 GMT+02:00 Scott Dorsey :

> The Bell and Howell printers will mostly pass tape splices, but they always
> have a little registration problem when the splice goes over, even if you
> add a few frames of slop.
>
> You can do it... I once conformed a 400 foot documentary entirely with a
> Presstape splicer (very very bad idea).
>
> But for the most part, cement splicers are very cheap today because there
> is little demand for anything that can't work on a modern print.  I have
> seen Meier-Hancocks on ebay for little more than the cost of postage.
>
> I paid more for my full-size M-H splicer than I paid for my car at the
> time.
> Now it's hardly worth the cost to store it.  The world is a strange place.
> --scott
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>



-- 
Esperanza Collado
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.esperanzacollado.org
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

[Frameworks] Núria Font in memoriam

[Eugeni Bonet]

Can't not find a notice in English and I'm very much affected to do it...
use translators... we miss her

http://www.ccma.cat/324/mor-als-59-anys-la-videoartista-nuria-font-premi-nacional-de-la-dansa-2009/noticia/2816460/
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Scott Dorsey]

The Bell and Howell printers will mostly pass tape splices, but they always
have a little registration problem when the splice goes over, even if you
add a few frames of slop.

You can do it... I once conformed a 400 foot documentary entirely with a 
Presstape splicer (very very bad idea).

But for the most part, cement splicers are very cheap today because there
is little demand for anything that can't work on a modern print.  I have
seen Meier-Hancocks on ebay for little more than the cost of postage.

I paid more for my full-size M-H splicer than I paid for my car at the time.
Now it's hardly worth the cost to store it.  The world is a strange place.
--scott
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Pip Chodorov]

Hi Esperanza,
I once asked my lab if I could make tape splices. The New York lab 
said sure. The Paris lab said no but they allowed me to make tape 
splices leaving an extra frame on either side of my cut which they 
cut off and replaced with a cement splice. In that way you get to do 
the creative part without having to invest in new equipment and 
techniques.

Pip


At 16:13 +0200 22/10/17, Esperanza Collado wrote:

Thank you, Scott. Your indications couldn't be more clear.

2017-10-22 14:35 GMT+02:00 Scott Dorsey 
<klu...@panix.com>:


Yes, the neg needs to be cut in order.  You can cut it with scenes simply in
order (and cement splice it).  If you do this you will see a line on 
the screen

at each cut.  The better way to do this is to A-B roll, that is to make two
rolls with a checkerboard pattern with scenes alternating with black leader.
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Esperanza Collado]

Thank you, Scott. Your indications couldn't be more clear.

2017-10-22 14:35 GMT+02:00 Scott Dorsey :

> Yes, the neg needs to be cut in order.  You can cut it with scenes simply
> in
> order (and cement splice it).  If you do this you will see a line on the
> screen
> at each cut.  The better way to do this is to A-B roll, that is to make two
> rolls with a checkerboard pattern with scenes alternating with black
> leader.
>
> If you do not want to touch the negative yourself either because you do not
> have a cement splicer or a clean enough place, you can ask the lab to
> "conform"
> the negative from the edit list.  Very few labs today will actually do
> conforming and the ones that do will charge a lot, but there are some
> places
> out there that do nothing but negative conforming.
>
> I suggest that if this is your first time that you borrow a hot splicer and
> buy some black camera leader (not print leader) and give it a try just to
> get
> a notion of how the process works.
>
> "A Primer On Filmmaking" by Roberts and Sharples is a good introduction to
> the mechanical process.  Get an earlier edition.
> --scott
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>



-- 
Esperanza Collado
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.esperanzacollado.org
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Scott Dorsey]

Yes, the neg needs to be cut in order.  You can cut it with scenes simply in
order (and cement splice it).  If you do this you will see a line on the screen
at each cut.  The better way to do this is to A-B roll, that is to make two
rolls with a checkerboard pattern with scenes alternating with black leader.

If you do not want to touch the negative yourself either because you do not
have a cement splicer or a clean enough place, you can ask the lab to "conform"
the negative from the edit list.  Very few labs today will actually do 
conforming and the ones that do will charge a lot, but there are some places
out there that do nothing but negative conforming.

I suggest that if this is your first time that you borrow a hot splicer and
buy some black camera leader (not print leader) and give it a try just to get
a notion of how the process works.

"A Primer On Filmmaking" by Roberts and Sharples is a good introduction to
the mechanical process.  Get an earlier edition.  
--scott
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

[Frameworks] Editing neg?

[Esperanza Collado]

Dear Workers of the Frame,

I have a negative and I want to create a print from it, organizing the
different sequences that I shot in a different order. What's the exact
procedure I should follow? Should I cut the negative and splice it together
in the new manner I want the final print to be, then send that to the lab?
(I need no disolves nor superimpossitions, just one shot after another in
the simplest way). If I don't want to cut the negative, I presume I should
use the numbers that appear on the side of the filmstrip to give
instructions to lab, but I'm not sure if that is so precise. I've never
done this before, and the guy from the lab wasn't very helpful. So if any
of you could explain the procedure to detail, I would be enormously
grateful. Also, I'd love to hear about  books on the subject.

Thanks very much,

Esperanza Collado
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.esperanzacollado.net 
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks