[LUTE] Re: String tech
Maybe the sheep need probiotics for health of intestinal bacteriaâ¦.. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist 408-921-3253, [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu YouTube Channel: [2]https://www.youtube.com/user/jmardinly/videos On Jan 20, 2018, at 5:38 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is certainly exposed to some environmental or dietary change. I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals. Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut crumbles... While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently stumbled upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to try. People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut feel to their gear - tennis and badminton players! There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a narrow range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton. Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those manufacturers have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing. Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121: Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps for instance have always used gut strings. Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[4]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested ) Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. Instead, their lifetime was probably longer. Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what Ed wrote. However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge (beef) whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled. This is what happend to me. I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even with lamb gut. Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again: the raw gut ribbons must have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity. I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well, a few months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience: I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length; the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Well, in my experience (and those of other stringmakers of the past like one of the best italian stringmaker of 1930's:Berti, that wrote something in matter) diet, foods etc has no influence at all on the string berhaviours/quality. At the same time has no influence the season when you do the strings. The diet of sheeps was a leggend introduced by Mersenne that, incidently, was not a stringmaker but a gesuit just to justify the superior quality of the italian gut strings. The real 'secret' , if a secret exist, is how you process the gut: firstly the sequence of the chemical treatments, then the twisting ratio, then how you polish the dried strings and for the 'x factor' that I do not like so share because I am working in that direction having given me the results I have mentioned before. However, the 'x factor' is the real explanation even for Mersenne, surely not the sheep's diet. Tennis strings: Yes, fortunately I know how to make tennis strings because my teacker was, for 30 years, a Babolat and then Savarez gut stringmakers. So I have the recipe to make the VS tennis gut strings in production in 1980-2000 years. However, there is nothing of different/interesting: the most important thing is the use of beef serosa instead of sheep gut. Nothing to say in matter of the chemical treatments employed that, at the end of the day, are same of strings for music. Actually, the real difference is the final coating/vernishing. Mimmo Ps: I have problems with my keyboards so this is what I meant: ...Well, many of the surviving lutes and 5 course guitars (I mean those that are supposed in original conditions whose original pitch standard can be recognized. They are: 13 course german baroque lutes (tuned at the german Kamerton = 410-420 Hz, see Baron 1727), 5 course french guitars (tuned at the french pitch of 390 Hz) , some renaissanche Venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale ( tuned probably at the 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch of 465 Hz about) ) has all their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt... -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Tristan von Neumann Inviato: sabato 20 gennaio 2018 13:38 A: lutelist Net Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is certainly exposed to some environmental or dietary change. I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals. Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut crumbles... While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently stumbled upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to try. People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut feel to their gear - tennis and badminton players! There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a narrow range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton. Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those manufacturers have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing. Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121: > Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings > always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first > used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is > there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps > for instance have always used gut strings. > > Sterling > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > Original message > From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche > Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech > > (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested > ) > Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only > source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). > He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. > Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not > modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: > the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian > lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their > working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. > Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop > to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli > 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to > the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same > breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. > Instead,
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is certainly exposed to some environmental or dietary change. I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals. Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut crumbles... While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently stumbled upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to try. People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut feel to their gear - tennis and badminton players! There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a narrow range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton. Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those manufacturers have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing. Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121: Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps for instance have always used gut strings. Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested ) Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. Instead, their lifetime was probably longer. Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what Ed wrote. However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge (beef) whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled. This is what happend to me. I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even with lamb gut. Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again: the raw gut ribbons must have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity. I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well, a few months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience: I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length; the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers IT IS A WASTE. Crazy. In conclusion: there is space for all the stringmakers to done the job: researches and tests. Go ahead guys. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Leonard Williams Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25 A: Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm treble gut from Gamut. The strings may last a while, but fraying and the resulting compromised tone can occur early on. In some cases I can turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking zone. I would, nevertheless, prefer to cha
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps for instance have always used gut strings. Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested ) Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. Instead, their lifetime was probably longer. Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what Ed wrote. However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge (beef) whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled. This is what happend to me. I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even with lamb gut. Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again: the raw gut ribbons must have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity. I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well, a few months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience: I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length; the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers IT IS A WASTE. Crazy. In conclusion: there is space for all the stringmakers to done the job: researches and tests. Go ahead guys. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Leonard Williams Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25 A: Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm treble gut from Gamut. The strings may last a while, but fraying and the resulting compromised tone can occur early on. In some cases I can turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking zone. I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love the sound of gut! Thanks, Leonard > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > Hello Leonard and others, > > This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed effectiveness of making trebles last long. > > Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. > > If you want a g treble at aD0, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if yo
[LUTE] Re: String tech
(Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested ) Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. Instead, their lifetime was probably longer. Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what Ed wrote. However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge (beef) whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled. This is what happend to me. I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even with lamb gut. Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again: the raw gut ribbons must have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity. I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well, a few months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience: I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length; the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers IT IS A WASTE. Crazy. In conclusion: there is space for all the stringmakers to done the job: researches and tests. Go ahead guys. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Leonard Williams Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25 A: Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm treble gut from Gamut. The strings may last a while, but fraying and the resulting compromised tone can occur early on. In some cases I can turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking zone. I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love the sound of gut! Thanks, Leonard > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > Hello Leonard and others, > > This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings > for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung > lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed > effectiveness of making trebles last long. > > Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string > length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. > > If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you > do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller > diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a > baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience > failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, > nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay > in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we > “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is > capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a > synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that > lute for instance should be at f, not g. > > My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble > lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with hea
[LUTE] Re: String tech
I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm treble gut from Gamut. The strings may last a while, but fraying and the resulting compromised tone can occur early on. In some cases I can turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking zone. I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love the sound of gut! Thanks, Leonard > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > Hello Leonard and others, > > This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings > for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung > lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed > effectiveness of making trebles last long. > > Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string > length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. > > If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you > do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller > diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a > baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience > failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, > nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay > in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we > “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is > capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a > synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that > lute for instance should be at f, not g. > > My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble > lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!! > On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or so unless I lower the > pitch to e. Then if I do that, it lasts as long as the other lute. > > So, if you have a 63 cm lute and insist on a gut treble, the pitch should be > f, not g at 440. Staying within the upper limits is the only way to use a gut > treble. Some people record in gut in that configuration, but they can stop > and change trebles as they fail! > > Another factor is what kind of gut. Gamut now has beef gut trebles and they > seem much stronger than sheep gut; some say beef is not as sweet in sound, > but I cannot tell the difference in appearance, sound, playability, or > texture. For me, beef is my personal choice. > > Ed > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Leonard Williams wrote: >> >> Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles? >> (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after >> installing one—still playable but the tone and intonation suffer. >> >> Thanks! >> Leonard Williams >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Hi Ed, Happy New Year old friend, all the best to you and Colleen. Nice to hear from you on this subject. I like Ed have played for many years with gut, I have only been using nylgut in the las 4 years or so, only because I now have so many lutes ( and I only have 8... don't know how Jean-Marie Poirier manages with his 30 some lutes..), that I find it a bit expensive to string them all in gut.. and my supplier fo 30 some years (SOFRACOB) which in my opinion was the best value for your $, has gone out of business. I am tempted however to go with Gamut for at least one of my lutes, and Ed if I recall you were supposed to send me some gauge calculations for the diapasons on the little Colin Everett archlute.. Bruno 2018-01-19 16:30 GMT-05:00 Edward Martin <[1]edvihuel...@gmail.com>: Hello Leonard and others, This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed effectiveness of making trebles last long. Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we "should" be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a synthetic treble at g = 440 at let's say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that lute for instance should be at f, not g. My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!! On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or so unless I lower the pitch to e. Then if I do that, it lasts as long as the other lute. So, if you have a 63 cm lute and insist on a gut treble, the pitch should be f, not g at 440. Staying within the upper limits is the only way to use a gut treble. Some people record in gut in that configuration, but they can stop and change trebles as they fail! Another factor is what kind of gut. Gamut now has beef gut trebles and they seem much stronger than sheep gut; some say beef is not as sweet in sound, but I cannot tell the difference in appearance, sound, playability, or texture. For me, beef is my personal choice. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Leonard Williams <[2]arc...@verizon.net> wrote: > > Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles? (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and intonation suffer. > > Thanks! > Leonard Williams > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com 2. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Hello Leonard and others, This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed effectiveness of making trebles last long. Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that lute for instance should be at f, not g. My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!! On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or so unless I lower the pitch to e. Then if I do that, it lasts as long as the other lute. So, if you have a 63 cm lute and insist on a gut treble, the pitch should be f, not g at 440. Staying within the upper limits is the only way to use a gut treble. Some people record in gut in that configuration, but they can stop and change trebles as they fail! Another factor is what kind of gut. Gamut now has beef gut trebles and they seem much stronger than sheep gut; some say beef is not as sweet in sound, but I cannot tell the difference in appearance, sound, playability, or texture. For me, beef is my personal choice. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Leonard Williams wrote: > > Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles? > (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after > installing one—still playable but the tone and intonation suffer. > > Thanks! > Leonard Williams > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Oil applied before installation? Let it soak into the string? Glue, perhaps, after installation, when fraying has begun? Leonard > On Jan 19, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Mathias Rösel > wrote: > > Almond oil, rather. > > Mathias > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > von Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Januar 2018 18:50 > An: Leonard Williams > Cc: Lute List > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: String tech > > I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers > on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string > > 2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>: > > Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut > trebles? (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers > very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and > intonation suffer. > Thanks! > Leonard Williams > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net > 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: String tech
1. Hang the string from a hook or door handle, attach an object on the other end which weighs approximately the same as the tension when tuned up on the lute. 2. Take a rag or paper towel (folded up) and squeeze a bit of Crazy Glue on it. 3. Quickly pass the ‘moistened’ part of the rag down the string from the top to the bottom end, so as to distribute the glue to penetrate. NB Avoid getting your fingers stuck with the glue, if stuck then acetone will dissolve it. 4. Unattach the string and install it on the lute. PS This method was suggested to me by Eliott Chapin. Miles > On Jan 19, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Mathias Rösel > wrote: > > Almond oil, rather. > > Mathias > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > von Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Januar 2018 18:50 > An: Leonard Williams > Cc: Lute List > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: String tech > > I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers > on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string > > 2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>: > > Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut > trebles? (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers > very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and > intonation suffer. > Thanks! > Leonard Williams > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net > 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Almond oil, rather. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Januar 2018 18:50 An: Leonard Williams Cc: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: String tech I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string 2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>: Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles? (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and intonation suffer. Thanks! Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tech
I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string 2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>: Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles? (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and intonation suffer. Thanks! Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Andreas and Anthony-- Thanks for the reference to the Aquilacorde site. I see he has lots of useful bits of information there. Now I have something else to fiddle with besides meantone frets and tastini! Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ On 6/19/08 4:43 AM, "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry I clicked too fast before I had copied the message: > > There is useful information at > > http://www.aquilacorde.com/faqi.htm > > However, I am not sure how to interpret the following : > > "Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm? > > .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8 Hz.mt > > The answer is: no, I can't. > > What should the appropriate string length be? > > A safe index should not exceed the 240 value. > > So: 240/440 Hz = .545 mt." > > I assume this must be speaking of an A lute, and that for a G lute at > 440 Hz > g-1is at 392Hz, the diameter of 0.42 is not relevant, the tension > seems to be 4K (Gamut calculator). > > I suppose for this string the breaking strain is .60 (mt ) x 392Hz = > 261,072 Hz > That would appear to be at the limit. > > Yet my top strings have been lasting 2 months (Nick Baldock). > > Have I got something wrong, here? > Anthony > > Full text below: > > > 14) What is a string's Breaking Index? > The Breaking Index is the higher frequency a gut string of any > diameter can reach at a string length of 1mt. > For both gut and Nylgut a mean value of 260 Hz.mt is a good reference > parameter. > In other words, a 1 meter long string - gut or Nylgut - will > statistically always break at 260 Hz, i.e. about 'C'. > Hence we deduce that the product of the pitch of the treble and by > the string length (more properly called 'Working Index') must always > be below this value, under pain of immediately breaking the string at > values over 260 or a very short playing life at values between 240 > and 260. No problems below 240. > > What is its practical use? > Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm? > > .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8 Hz.mt > > The answer is: no, I can't. > > What should the appropriate string length be? > > A safe index should not exceed the 240 value. > > So: 240/440 Hz = .545 mt. > > In practice the appropriate string lengt (at A-440) should not exceed > 54 cm. > > Rule of thumb (assuming the system bridge-string-nut is free from any > so called 'cutting effect'): > > - Working index within 240: green light. > - Working index between 250 and 260: amber light (the treble could > break in a few hours/days, especially by high humidity). > - Working index over 260: red light (the treble will break > immediately or within minutes). > Le 19 juin 08 =E0 10:06, Andreas Schlegel a ecrit : > >> The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers >> talk from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very >> strong type at around 260 Hz/m). >> So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want >> to play - instead of changing strings - you have to tune the >> string around one semitone lower. >> >> Regards, >> >> Andreas >> >> Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams: >> >>> On occasion the topic of "authentic" pitch arises: to what >>> G, e.g., >>> was a lute tuned? Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to >>> just >>> before it breaks. So--my question is: What is the breaking pitch >>> (frequency) of gut? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Leonard Williams >>> >>>/[ ] >>>/ \ >>> | * | >>> \_=_/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > --
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Sorry I clicked too fast before I had copied the message: There is useful information at http://www.aquilacorde.com/faqi.htm However, I am not sure how to interpret the following : "Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm? .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8 Hz.mt The answer is: no, I can't. What should the appropriate string length be? A safe index should not exceed the 240 value. So: 240/440 Hz = .545 mt." I assume this must be speaking of an A lute, and that for a G lute at 440 Hz g-1 is at 392Hz, the diameter of 0.42 is not relevant, the tension seems to be 4K (Gamut calculator). I suppose for this string the breaking strain is .60 (mt ) x 392Hz = 261,072 Hz That would appear to be at the limit. Yet my top strings have been lasting 2 months (Nick Baldock). Have I got something wrong, here? Anthony Full text below: 14) What is a string's Breaking Index? The Breaking Index is the higher frequency a gut string of any diameter can reach at a string length of 1mt. For both gut and Nylgut a mean value of 260 Hz.mt is a good reference parameter. In other words, a 1 meter long string - gut or Nylgut - will statistically always break at 260 Hz, i.e. about 'C'. Hence we deduce that the product of the pitch of the treble and by the string length (more properly called 'Working Index') must always be below this value, under pain of immediately breaking the string at values over 260 or a very short playing life at values between 240 and 260. No problems below 240. What is its practical use? Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm? .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8 Hz.mt The answer is: no, I can't. What should the appropriate string length be? A safe index should not exceed the 240 value. So: 240/440 Hz = .545 mt. In practice the appropriate string lengt (at A-440) should not exceed 54 cm. Rule of thumb (assuming the system bridge-string-nut is free from any so called 'cutting effect'): - Working index within 240: green light. - Working index between 250 and 260: amber light (the treble could break in a few hours/days, especially by high humidity). - Working index over 260: red light (the treble will break immediately or within minutes). Le 19 juin 08 =E0 10:06, Andreas Schlegel a ecrit : > The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers > talk from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very > strong type at around 260 Hz/m). > So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want > to play - instead of changing strings - you have to tune the > string around one semitone lower. > > Regards, > > Andreas > > Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams: > >> On occasion the topic of "authentic" pitch arises: to what >> G, e.g., >> was a lute tuned? Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to >> just >> before it breaks. So--my question is: What is the breaking pitch >> (frequency) of gut? >> >> Regards, >> Leonard Williams >> >>/[ ] >>/ \ >> | * | >> \_=_/ >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > --
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Le 19 juin 08 à 10:06, Andreas Schlegel a écrit : The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers talk from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very strong type at around 260 Hz/m). So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want to play - instead of changing strings - you have to tune the string around one semitone lower. Regards, Andreas Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams: On occasion the topic of "authentic" pitch arises: to what G, e.g., was a lute tuned? Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to just before it breaks. So--my question is: What is the breaking pitch (frequency) of gut? Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String tech
The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers talk from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very strong type at around 260 Hz/m). So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want to play - instead of changing strings - you have to tune the string around one semitone lower. Regards, Andreas Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams: On occasion the topic of "authentic" pitch arises: to what G, e.g., was a lute tuned? Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to just before it breaks. So--my question is: What is the breaking pitch (frequency) of gut? Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html