[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Hugh Smitham]

The one that makes you happiest.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
> could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
> had. 
>
> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
> two?
>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Anthony Coffin]

Perfectly stated, Ben! I have a Lightningbolt Disc in large part because I
wanted to support a small company that was disrupting the bike industry,
but I was also curious about low trail. I plan to buy an Appaloosa in the
next batch in a large part because of BRF, and secondly because I don't
think any other bike brand in the world will ride like it.

There are a few other companies making decent steel frames. Where Crust and
Riv differ is a more keen eye for style, and pushing boundaries. More
importantly for me, they both seem to have a business model that
prioritizes individuals, and the ideas that matter to them. I would be fine
riding around on modified 70's road bikes, but these brands make me feel
good about supporting them.

Btw, I'm a Gen X'er as well, fwiw.

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 12:43 PM Ben Miller  wrote:

> Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead as
> Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other
> comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes.
> Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange,
> Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv
> and Crust have.
>
> Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his
> friends wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica,
> and Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And
> these are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time.
> In many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most
> "normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart
> and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a
> weirdo")
>
> But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these
> personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes"
> and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to
> Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to
> causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can
> and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF
> experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about
> cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over
> holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time.
>
> All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the people
> as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their
> projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I
> definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both
> companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a
> personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust
> comparison so unique.
>
> As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I am
> Gen X.
>
> (Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at
> the helm, feels like a company that had a real personal touch and a sense
> of humor)
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan of
>> the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not he
>> is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public
>> service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not
>> really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have
>> a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I
>> would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be
>> better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and
>> sporty. On the other, he says the Riv's steering is quicker, but keeps
>> calling it relaxed and chill. Hard to tell, but it looks like maybe the
>> Bombora has more drop from saddle to bars. Who knows.
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 12:15:36 PM UTC-5 mrg...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs Rivs
>>> with some tiny difference, Riv vs Crusts, Surlys, carbon TT bikes,
>>> everything. I want to see "I took my Electra Townie to a pump track",
>>> "super-low-trail bike vs penny farthing for grocery getter", "55 Atlantis
>>> 29er vs 56 Atlantis 650b", "Same bike with 12 different handlebar setups",
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> I like what Russ at Path Less Pedaled is doing; he's all about the
>>> "non-competitive side of cycling" which aligns with RBW perfectly.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> Austin TX
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-6 bjmi...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 If I had a YouTube channel and wanted people to watch, click the like
 button, subscribe, etc... I'd probably write titles that makes people want
 to click them. When I go shopping for a car, I 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Philip Barrett]

Confession; I got to work with Rory before his demons killed him. It was 
both a joy and a tragedy, he was such a prolific talent and one of the 
sweetest people you could meet. But daily in the studio, by mid-evening he 
had drunk himself to the point of no return and we spent the next 6 to 8 
hours wasting take after take. Broke my heart to watch.

Incidentally, of all the guitar players I've had the privilege to work 
with, Joe Walsh is probably the next favorite in line. That man can make a 
solo out of 4 notes and have you on your back with laughter all at the same 
time.

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 10:16:06 PM UTC-6 Philip Williamson wrote:

> I enjoy the “Bike Brand Guru = ‘70s Guitar God” game way more than I enjoy 
> listening to ‘70s guitar gods.
> I only know Rory Gallagher from the Black 47 song “Rory.”
>
> I’ll watch the Russ video later, and then comment if I have anything to 
> say.
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:30:51 PM UTC-8 john...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I absolutely agree with Ben's point about how both Rivendell and Crust 
>> have tried to build up a subculture around their brands that is about more 
>> than just the bikes. 
>> At the same time, doing this helps people get an idea of what you can do 
>> with the bikes they make, e.g. the way the Scapegoat is a model designed by 
>> someone who does
>> a very specific sort of riding.
>>
>> Couple more guitarist-frame builder connections:
>>
>> Tom Ritchey > Tony Iommi: Played pivotal role in creation of entire 
>> genre. Had to compete with a flamboyant frontman to get credit (Ozzy/Gary 
>> Fisher)
>> JP Weigle > Robert Fripp: Perfectionist with distinctive style. Not well 
>> known outside the circle of cognoscenti
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 19:43, Ben Miller  wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead 
>>> as Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other 
>>> comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes. 
>>> Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange, 
>>> Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv 
>>> and Crust have. 
>>>
>>> Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his 
>>> friends wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica, 
>>> and Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And 
>>> these are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time. 
>>> In many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most 
>>> "normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart 
>>> and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a 
>>> weirdo")
>>>
>>> But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these 
>>> personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes" 
>>> and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to 
>>> Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to 
>>> causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can 
>>> and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF 
>>> experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about 
>>> cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over 
>>> holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time. 
>>>
>>> All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the 
>>> people as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their 
>>> projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I 
>>> definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both 
>>> companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a 
>>> personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust 
>>> comparison so unique. 
>>>
>>> As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I 
>>> am Gen X.
>>>
>>> (Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at 
>>> the helm, feels like a company that had a real personal touch and a sense 
>>> of humor) 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:
>>>
 Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan 
 of the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not 
 he is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public 
 service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not 
 really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have 
 a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I 
 would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be 
 better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and 
 sporty. On the 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Philip Williamson]

I enjoy the “Bike Brand Guru = ‘70s Guitar God” game way more than I enjoy 
listening to ‘70s guitar gods.
I only know Rory Gallagher from the Black 47 song “Rory.”

I’ll watch the Russ video later, and then comment if I have anything to say.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA


On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:30:51 PM UTC-8 john...@gmail.com wrote:

> I absolutely agree with Ben's point about how both Rivendell and Crust 
> have tried to build up a subculture around their brands that is about more 
> than just the bikes. 
> At the same time, doing this helps people get an idea of what you can do 
> with the bikes they make, e.g. the way the Scapegoat is a model designed by 
> someone who does
> a very specific sort of riding.
>
> Couple more guitarist-frame builder connections:
>
> Tom Ritchey > Tony Iommi: Played pivotal role in creation of entire genre. 
> Had to compete with a flamboyant frontman to get credit (Ozzy/Gary Fisher)
> JP Weigle > Robert Fripp: Perfectionist with distinctive style. Not well 
> known outside the circle of cognoscenti
>
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 19:43, Ben Miller  wrote:
>
>> Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead 
>> as Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other 
>> comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes. 
>> Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange, 
>> Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv 
>> and Crust have. 
>>
>> Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his 
>> friends wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica, 
>> and Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And 
>> these are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time. 
>> In many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most 
>> "normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart 
>> and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a 
>> weirdo")
>>
>> But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these 
>> personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes" 
>> and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to 
>> Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to 
>> causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can 
>> and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF 
>> experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about 
>> cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over 
>> holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time. 
>>
>> All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the 
>> people as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their 
>> projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I 
>> definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both 
>> companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a 
>> personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust 
>> comparison so unique. 
>>
>> As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I am 
>> Gen X.
>>
>> (Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at 
>> the helm, feels like a company that had a real personal touch and a sense 
>> of humor) 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan of 
>>> the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not he 
>>> is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public 
>>> service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not 
>>> really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have 
>>> a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I 
>>> would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be 
>>> better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and 
>>> sporty. On the other, he says the Riv's steering is quicker, but keeps 
>>> calling it relaxed and chill. Hard to tell, but it looks like maybe the 
>>> Bombora has more drop from saddle to bars. Who knows. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 12:15:36 PM UTC-5 mrg...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs Rivs 
 with some tiny difference, Riv vs Crusts, Surlys, carbon TT bikes, 
 everything. I want to see "I took my Electra Townie to a pump track", 
 "super-low-trail bike vs penny farthing for grocery getter", "55 Atlantis 
 29er vs 56 Atlantis 650b", "Same bike with 12 different handlebar setups", 
 etc.  

 I like what Russ at Path Less Pedaled is doing; he's all about the 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mark Roland]

 Jason wrote: *Finally watched the video. Nothing too surprising in there 
but quite pragmatic.  I think those who were immediately turned off by the 
"click bait" title are (understandably) reactionary towards this and missed 
the actual intention of the title: it's simply a quote of the question he 
apparently gets asked a lot.  *

I don't think anybody here missed the intention of the title, especially 
since the OP says right up front that the video is "less provocative." And 
that is not the quote. The quote is "What I get asked is, is this bike 
better than this one." He decides to use as an example two bikes he owns, a 
Rivendell Sam Hillborne and a Crust Bombora. The title is Rivendell vs 
Crust! Which Is Better? The intention of the title is to get people to 
watch the video. Which is what a good title is supposed to do. What puts it 
kind of in the clickbait realm is, the video is not about one bike company 
vs another bike company. Also, he does not answer even the specific 
question of which of these two models is "better." So it's mildly deceptive 
and it doesn't deliver the answer to the question it poses, the definition 
of clickbait.

Certainly, most people who subscribe to the channel or know these bike 
companies know that any title with versus in it is not going to deliver, 
especially when the question is which is better. It's all kind of silly, 
right? But we still like the idea that somebody is going to come down on 
one side or the other, just so we can totally agree. Or totally disagree.  
It fulfills the same role as gossip. And It doesn't matter. Just like this 
thread doesn't matter. It's cheap, harmless fun during a cold & snowy 
mid-winter  snap (at least here in the Northeast). Although he did not make 
any declarations, it does seem as though he goes for the Hillborne more 
these days. So I'm going with Rivendell FTW by decision. And after watching 
the thing, I confirmed my initial opinion that I wasn't interested. But 
since I didn't fall for the initial clickbait, I'm really not the target 
audience anyway. I admire him for eking out a place in the online bicycle 
space, it's crowded out there. It's 19 degrees F in Beacon right now, 
supposed to get down to 12 by morning.  
*Path Less Pedaled* = The Traveling Wilburys 



On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 2:18:52 PM UTC-5 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Finally watched the video. Nothing too surprising in there but quite 
> pragmatic.  I think those who were immediately turned off by the "click 
> bait" title are (understandably) reactionary towards this and missed the 
> actual intention of the title: it's simply a quote of the question he 
> apparently gets asked a lot. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mark Roland]

 Jason wrote: Finally watched the video. Nothing too surprising in there 
but quite pragmatic.  I think those who were immediately turned off by the 
"click bait" title are (understandably) reactionary towards this and missed 
the actual intention of the title: it's simply a quote of the question he 
apparently gets asked a lot.  

I don't think anybody here missed the intention of the title, especially 
since the OP says right up front that the video is "less provocative." And 
that is not the quote. The quote is "What I get asked is, is this bike 
better than this one." He decides to use as an example two bikes he owns, a 
Rivendell Sam Hillborne and a Crust Bombora. The title is Rivendell vs 
Crust! Which Is Better? The intention of the title is to get people to 
watch the video. Which is what a good title is supposed to do. What puts it 
kind of in the clickbait realm is, the video is not about one bike company 
vs another bike company. Also, he does not answer even the specific 
question of which of these two models is "better." So it's mildly deceptive 
and it doesn't deliver the answer to the question it poses, the definition 
of clickbait.

Certainly, most people who subscribe to the channel or know these bike 
companies know that any title with versus in it is not going to deliver, 
especially when the question is which is better. It's all kind of silly, 
right? But we still like the idea that somebody is going to come down on 
one side or the other, just so we can totally agree. Or totally disagree.  
It fulfills the same role as gossip. And It doesn't matter. Just like this 
thread doesn't matter. It's cheap, harmless fun during a cold & snowy 
mid-winter  snap (at least here in the Northeast). Although he did not make 
any declarations, it does seem as though he goes for the Hillborne more 
these days. So I'm going with Rivendell FTW by decision. And after watching 
the thing, I confirmed my initial opinion that I wasn't interested. But 
since I didn't fall for the initial clickbait, I'm really not the target 
audience anyway. I admire him for eking out a place in the online bicycle 
space, it's crowded out there. It's 19 degrees F in Beacon right now, 
supposed to get down to 12 by morning.  
*Path Less Pedaled* = The Traveling Wilburys 
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 2:18:52 PM UTC-5 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Finally watched the video. Nothing too surprising in there but quite 
> pragmatic.  I think those who were immediately turned off by the "click 
> bait" title are (understandably) reactionary towards this and missed the 
> actual intention of the title: it's simply a quote of the question he 
> apparently gets asked a lot. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[greenteadrinkers]

Hahaha, love this.

Riv> Creedence Clearwater Revival
Surly> Captain Beefheart
Bruce Gordon> Steely Dan
Crust> Naplam Death

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 2:18:52 PM UTC-5 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Finally watched the video. Nothing too surprising in there but quite 
> pragmatic.  I think those who were immediately turned off by the "click 
> bait" title are (understandably) reactionary towards this and missed the 
> actual intention of the title: it's simply a quote of the question he 
> apparently gets asked a lot. 

-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Jason Fuller]

Finally watched the video. Nothing too surprising in there but quite 
pragmatic.  I think those who were immediately turned off by the "click 
bait" title are (understandably) reactionary towards this and missed the 
actual intention of the title: it's simply a quote of the question he 
apparently gets asked a lot. 

-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Den John]

Well one of the interesting questions that follows from the Riv/Crust
approach is whether anyone else is doing the same thing. If not, why?

The only example I know of for certain is Stooge Cycles in the UK, which
has an approach based on limited runs of production
bikes made in a major Taiwanese factory. Each run of bikes has its own
identity, but within a general concept of progressive
geometry, non-suspension steel bikes with a nod to early MTB history. It
seems to be working well: each run sells out pretty quickly.
Stooge also gets its identity from the fact it's basically run by one
person, who puts a lot of his personal interests into it.
Oh, and the band/music link is already done for you with Stooge :-)

Black Mountain Cycles is another example I suppose.

I didn't intend to imply that any of this stuff is contrived. I think with
these smaller brands, the identity emerges as they go on and try different
ideas. So it's interesting to follow them.

If anyone can think of a bike brand that would match with Jello Biafra, I'd
be interested to hear about it.





On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 18:28, Mark Roland  wrote:

> I don't think anyone is disputing the notion that Rivendell and Crust are
> niche brands that have created a feeling, or lifestyle or culture around
> their brand. Those words sound not quite right and maybe a bit too
> premeditated. In the case of these two companies, the marketing angle is
> really an outgrowth of who they are and what they believe in and share with
> their customers. Anyway not breaking news. I'm going Mark Knopfler/Grant
> Petersen. True, Knopfler races cars. But he also started the Notting
> Hillbillies, which is kinda like Hillibikes, going back to roots. And he's
> good, and went against the heavy rock/punk scene in the late 70s, forging
> his own way.
>
> On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 2:30:51 AM UTC-5 john...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I absolutely agree with Ben's point about how both Rivendell and Crust
>> have tried to build up a subculture around their brands that is about more
>> than just the bikes.
>> At the same time, doing this helps people get an idea of what you can do
>> with the bikes they make, e.g. the way the Scapegoat is a model designed by
>> someone who does
>> a very specific sort of riding.
>>
>> Couple more guitarist-frame builder connections:
>>
>> Tom Ritchey > Tony Iommi: Played pivotal role in creation of entire
>> genre. Had to compete with a flamboyant frontman to get credit (Ozzy/Gary
>> Fisher)
>> JP Weigle > Robert Fripp: Perfectionist with distinctive style. Not well
>> known outside the circle of cognoscenti
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 19:43, Ben Miller  wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead
>>> as Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other
>>> comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes.
>>> Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange,
>>> Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv
>>> and Crust have.
>>>
>>> Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his
>>> friends wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica,
>>> and Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And
>>> these are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time.
>>> In many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most
>>> "normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart
>>> and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a
>>> weirdo")
>>>
>>> But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these
>>> personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes"
>>> and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to
>>> Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to
>>> causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can
>>> and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF
>>> experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about
>>> cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over
>>> holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time.
>>>
>>> All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the
>>> people as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their
>>> projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I
>>> definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both
>>> companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a
>>> personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust
>>> comparison so unique.
>>>
>>> As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I
>>> am Gen X.
>>>
>>> (Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at
>>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mark Roland]

I don't think anyone is disputing the notion that Rivendell and Crust are 
niche brands that have created a feeling, or lifestyle or culture around 
their brand. Those words sound not quite right and maybe a bit too 
premeditated. In the case of these two companies, the marketing angle is 
really an outgrowth of who they are and what they believe in and share with 
their customers. Anyway not breaking news. I'm going Mark Knopfler/Grant 
Petersen. True, Knopfler races cars. But he also started the Notting 
Hillbillies, which is kinda like Hillibikes, going back to roots. And he's 
good, and went against the heavy rock/punk scene in the late 70s, forging 
his own way.

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 2:30:51 AM UTC-5 john...@gmail.com wrote:

> I absolutely agree with Ben's point about how both Rivendell and Crust 
> have tried to build up a subculture around their brands that is about more 
> than just the bikes. 
> At the same time, doing this helps people get an idea of what you can do 
> with the bikes they make, e.g. the way the Scapegoat is a model designed by 
> someone who does
> a very specific sort of riding.
>
> Couple more guitarist-frame builder connections:
>
> Tom Ritchey > Tony Iommi: Played pivotal role in creation of entire genre. 
> Had to compete with a flamboyant frontman to get credit (Ozzy/Gary Fisher)
> JP Weigle > Robert Fripp: Perfectionist with distinctive style. Not well 
> known outside the circle of cognoscenti
>
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 19:43, Ben Miller  wrote:
>
>> Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead 
>> as Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other 
>> comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes. 
>> Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange, 
>> Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv 
>> and Crust have. 
>>
>> Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his 
>> friends wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica, 
>> and Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And 
>> these are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time. 
>> In many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most 
>> "normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart 
>> and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a 
>> weirdo")
>>
>> But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these 
>> personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes" 
>> and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to 
>> Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to 
>> causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can 
>> and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF 
>> experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about 
>> cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over 
>> holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time. 
>>
>> All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the 
>> people as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their 
>> projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I 
>> definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both 
>> companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a 
>> personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust 
>> comparison so unique. 
>>
>> As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I am 
>> Gen X.
>>
>> (Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at 
>> the helm, feels like a company that had a real personal touch and a sense 
>> of humor) 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan of 
>>> the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not he 
>>> is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public 
>>> service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not 
>>> really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have 
>>> a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I 
>>> would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be 
>>> better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and 
>>> sporty. On the other, he says the Riv's steering is quicker, but keeps 
>>> calling it relaxed and chill. Hard to tell, but it looks like maybe the 
>>> Bombora has more drop from saddle to bars. Who knows. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 12:15:36 PM UTC-5 mrg...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Den John]

I absolutely agree with Ben's point about how both Rivendell and Crust have
tried to build up a subculture around their brands that is about more than
just the bikes.
At the same time, doing this helps people get an idea of what you can do
with the bikes they make, e.g. the way the Scapegoat is a model designed by
someone who does
a very specific sort of riding.

Couple more guitarist-frame builder connections:

Tom Ritchey > Tony Iommi: Played pivotal role in creation of entire genre.
Had to compete with a flamboyant frontman to get credit (Ozzy/Gary Fisher)
JP Weigle > Robert Fripp: Perfectionist with distinctive style. Not well
known outside the circle of cognoscenti

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 19:43, Ben Miller  wrote:

> Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead as
> Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other
> comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes.
> Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange,
> Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv
> and Crust have.
>
> Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his
> friends wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica,
> and Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And
> these are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time.
> In many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most
> "normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart
> and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a
> weirdo")
>
> But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these
> personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes"
> and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to
> Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to
> causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can
> and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF
> experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about
> cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over
> holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time.
>
> All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the people
> as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their
> projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I
> definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both
> companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a
> personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust
> comparison so unique.
>
> As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I am
> Gen X.
>
> (Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at
> the helm, feels like a company that had a real personal touch and a sense
> of humor)
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan of
>> the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not he
>> is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public
>> service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not
>> really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have
>> a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I
>> would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be
>> better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and
>> sporty. On the other, he says the Riv's steering is quicker, but keeps
>> calling it relaxed and chill. Hard to tell, but it looks like maybe the
>> Bombora has more drop from saddle to bars. Who knows.
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 12:15:36 PM UTC-5 mrg...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs Rivs
>>> with some tiny difference, Riv vs Crusts, Surlys, carbon TT bikes,
>>> everything. I want to see "I took my Electra Townie to a pump track",
>>> "super-low-trail bike vs penny farthing for grocery getter", "55 Atlantis
>>> 29er vs 56 Atlantis 650b", "Same bike with 12 different handlebar setups",
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> I like what Russ at Path Less Pedaled is doing; he's all about the
>>> "non-competitive side of cycling" which aligns with RBW perfectly.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> Austin TX
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-6 bjmi...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 If I had a YouTube channel and wanted people to watch, click the like
 button, subscribe, etc... I'd probably write titles that makes people want
 to click them. When I go shopping for a car, I don't get bent about car
 sales tactics that are there for a reason, even if they kind of annoy 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Joe Bernard]

Party on, Garth 



On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 3:34:10 PM UTC-8 Garth wrote:

> Ray Lynch . Nothing Above My Shoulders But The Evening
>
>  
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-5 Garth wrote:
>
>> Which is better . ahahahahahah\a ... that's good one !   
>> What's better mean ? 
>> (looking in the dictionary )
>> ( shrugs shoulders )
>> It's defined with more words. and each one of those words is defined 
>> by yet more words. Kinda wordy isn't it ? 
>>  smiling 
>> Lots of words but doesn't really say anything meaningful.
>> Yes.
>> Like an irresistible wabbit hole that goes nowhere.
>> The irresistible temptation . to ask  to quest .
>> And for what ?
>> The "ask" itself. The ask asks itself about itself   the quest quests 
>> about itself . the wonder wonders about itself . 
>> Thinking thinks about itself. 
>> BEING IS SELF
>>
>> George Winston  Autumn, December. 
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 3:16:08 PM UTC-5 Addison wrote:
>>
>>> Ah... Reckoner...one of my favorite songs from my favorite band.  And 
>>> one of the first songs I learned when I purchased my first guitar in 
>>> January 2020, PreCovid times.  This live version is still my favorite:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/2FMP-9bn9N8
>>>
>>> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>>>
>>> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>>>  
>>>
>>> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>>>
>>> Portfolio and Blog 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:53 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
 My guitarist is Peter Frampton. Get his new instrumental album April 
 23rd, this is Reckoner, a Radiohead song. Enjoy!

 https://youtu.be/RHdj_-x_51c

 On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:40:59 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I responded to the original post which referred to the Crust as the 
> low trail bike. I didnt watch the video, it doesn't interest me and I 
> wasn't responding to its content. 
>
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:26:38 AM UTC-8 lconley wrote:
>
>> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video 
>> that they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the 
>> "low 
>> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know 
>> what 
>> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>>
>> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he 
>>> said it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and 
>>> I 
>>> enjoyed the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he 
>>> gets 
>>> asked this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>>
>>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>>
>>> Tom Milani
>>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread 
 which is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting 
 to 
 the thread being a thread. 

 Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard

 On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard 
 wrote:

> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered 
> the 
> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought 
> a 
> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
> that 
> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to 
> ride. 
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video 
>> with the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ 
>> comparing his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe 
>> less 
>> so than it could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a 
>> lot. I know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and 
>> ride, 
>> so I do it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly 
>> due to 
>> Matt & Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the 
>> Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Garth]

Ray Lynch . Nothing Above My Shoulders But The Evening

 
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-5 Garth wrote:

> Which is better . ahahahahahah\a ... that's good one !   
> What's better mean ? 
> (looking in the dictionary )
> ( shrugs shoulders )
> It's defined with more words. and each one of those words is defined 
> by yet more words. Kinda wordy isn't it ? 
>  smiling 
> Lots of words but doesn't really say anything meaningful.
> Yes.
> Like an irresistible wabbit hole that goes nowhere.
> The irresistible temptation . to ask  to quest .
> And for what ?
> The "ask" itself. The ask asks itself about itself   the quest quests 
> about itself . the wonder wonders about itself . 
> Thinking thinks about itself. 
> BEING IS SELF
>
> George Winston  Autumn, December. 
>
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 3:16:08 PM UTC-5 Addison wrote:
>
>> Ah... Reckoner...one of my favorite songs from my favorite band.  And one 
>> of the first songs I learned when I purchased my first guitar in January 
>> 2020, PreCovid times.  This live version is still my favorite:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/2FMP-9bn9N8
>>
>> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>>
>> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>>  
>>
>> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>>
>> Portfolio and Blog 
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:53 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>>> My guitarist is Peter Frampton. Get his new instrumental album April 
>>> 23rd, this is Reckoner, a Radiohead song. Enjoy!
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/RHdj_-x_51c
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:40:59 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 I responded to the original post which referred to the Crust as the low 
 trail bike. I didnt watch the video, it doesn't interest me and I wasn't 
 responding to its content. 


 On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:26:38 AM UTC-8 lconley wrote:

> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>
> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>
>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he 
>> said it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I 
>> enjoyed the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he 
>> gets 
>> asked this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>
>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>
>> Tom Milani
>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread 
>>> which is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting 
>>> to 
>>> the thread being a thread. 
>>>
>>> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
 comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered 
 the 
 "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought 
 a 
 Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
 that 
 I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to 
 ride. 

 On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with 
> the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ 
> comparing his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe 
> less 
> so than it could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a 
> lot. I know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and 
> ride, 
> so I do it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due 
> to 
> Matt & Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the 
> Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when 
> comparing the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to 
> be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Garth]

Which is better . ahahahahahah\a ... that's good one !   
What's better mean ? 
(looking in the dictionary )
( shrugs shoulders )
It's defined with more words. and each one of those words is defined by 
yet more words. Kinda wordy isn't it ? 
 smiling 
Lots of words but doesn't really say anything meaningful.
Yes.
Like an irresistible wabbit hole that goes nowhere.
The irresistible temptation . to ask  to quest .
And for what ?
The "ask" itself. The ask asks itself about itself   the quest quests 
about itself . the wonder wonders about itself . 
Thinking thinks about itself. 
BEING IS SELF

George Winston  Autumn, December. 


On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 3:16:08 PM UTC-5 Addison wrote:

> Ah... Reckoner...one of my favorite songs from my favorite band.  And one 
> of the first songs I learned when I purchased my first guitar in January 
> 2020, PreCovid times.  This live version is still my favorite:
>
> https://youtu.be/2FMP-9bn9N8
>
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>  
>
> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>
> Portfolio and Blog 
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:53 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> My guitarist is Peter Frampton. Get his new instrumental album April 
>> 23rd, this is Reckoner, a Radiohead song. Enjoy!
>>
>> https://youtu.be/RHdj_-x_51c
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:40:59 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> I responded to the original post which referred to the Crust as the low 
>>> trail bike. I didnt watch the video, it doesn't interest me and I wasn't 
>>> responding to its content. 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:26:38 AM UTC-8 lconley wrote:
>>>
 I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
 they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
 trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
 is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.

 One word on guitarists: Hendrix.

 Laing

 On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:

> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I 
> enjoyed 
> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>
> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>
> Tom Milani
> Alexandria, VA USA
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread 
>> which is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting 
>> to 
>> the thread being a thread. 
>>
>> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
>>> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered 
>>> the 
>>> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
>>> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
>>> that 
>>> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to 
>>> ride. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>>
 The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with 
 the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
 " 

 The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ 
 comparing his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe 
 less 
 so than it could be? 

 I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a 
 lot. I know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and 
 ride, 
 so I do it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due 
 to 
 Matt & Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the 
 Rivendell 
 aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when 
 comparing the 
 Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to 
 be 
 saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
 bikes 
 had. 

 Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail 
 compared to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. 
 Like 
 most thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Addison Wilhite]

Ah... Reckoner...one of my favorite songs from my favorite band.  And one
of the first songs I learned when I purchased my first guitar in January
2020, PreCovid times.  This live version is still my favorite:

https://youtu.be/2FMP-9bn9N8

Addison Wilhite, M.A.

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

*“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*

Portfolio and Blog 


On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:53 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> My guitarist is Peter Frampton. Get his new instrumental album April 23rd,
> this is Reckoner, a Radiohead song. Enjoy!
>
> https://youtu.be/RHdj_-x_51c
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:40:59 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I responded to the original post which referred to the Crust as the low
>> trail bike. I didnt watch the video, it doesn't interest me and I wasn't
>> responding to its content.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:26:38 AM UTC-8 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that
>>> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low
>>> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what
>>> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>>>
>>> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>>>
 FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said
 it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed
 the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked
 this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?

 And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd
 never heard of him but will now check him out.

 Tom Milani
 Alexandria, VA USA

 On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread
> which is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to
> the thread being a thread.
>
> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a
>> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the
>> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a
>> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
>> that
>> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to
>> ride.
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>
>>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with
>>> the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?
>>> "
>>>
>>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing
>>> his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than 
>>> it
>>> could be?
>>>
>>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot.
>>> I know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so 
>>> I
>>> do it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to 
>>> Matt &
>>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell
>>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
>>> the
>>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be
>>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
>>> bikes
>>> had.
>>>
>>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail
>>> compared to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like
>>> most thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your 
>>> hot
>>> take on the two?
>>>
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and
>>> important stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really
>>> interesting collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along 
>>> the
>>> lines of the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be 
>>> really
>>> cool!
>>>
>> --
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> 
> .
>

[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Joe Bernard]

My guitarist is Peter Frampton. Get his new instrumental album April 23rd, 
this is Reckoner, a Radiohead song. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/RHdj_-x_51c

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 11:40:59 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I responded to the original post which referred to the Crust as the low 
> trail bike. I didnt watch the video, it doesn't interest me and I wasn't 
> responding to its content. 
>
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:26:38 AM UTC-8 lconley wrote:
>
>> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
>> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
>> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
>> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>>
>> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
>>> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed 
>>> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
>>> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>>
>>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>>
>>> Tom Milani
>>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which 
 is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the 
 thread being a thread. 

 Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard

 On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
> that 
> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with 
>> the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
>> his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than 
>> it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. 
>> I know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so 
>> I 
>> do it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt 
>> & 
>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
>> the 
>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
>> bikes 
>> had. 
>>
>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared 
>> to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most 
>> thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot 
>> take 
>> on the two?
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and 
>> important stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really 
>> interesting collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along 
>> the 
>> lines of the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be 
>> really 
>> cool!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Joe Bernard]

I responded to the original post which referred to the Crust as the low 
trail bike. I didnt watch the video, it doesn't interest me and I wasn't 
responding to its content. 


On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:26:38 AM UTC-8 lconley wrote:

> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>
> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>
>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
>> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed 
>> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
>> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>
>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>
>> Tom Milani
>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which 
>>> is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the 
>>> thread being a thread. 
>>>
>>> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
 comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
 "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
 Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way that 
 I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 

 On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
> his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than 
> it 
> could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I 
> do 
> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
> the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
> bikes 
> had. 
>
> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared 
> to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most 
> thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot 
> take 
> on the two?
>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and 
> important stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really 
> interesting collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along 
> the 
> lines of the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really 
> cool!
>


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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Ben Miller]

Okay, okay, I have to admit Johnny's comparisons of "Riv is to the Dead as 
Crust is to Bowie" got a laugh out of me. That and some of the other 
comments got me thinking a bit, Riv and Crust are more than just the bikes. 
Sure other bike companies were influenced by Grant: Surly, Velo Orange, 
Rawland, etc, but I'd make a case that they lack the personality that Riv 
and Crust have. 

Crust literally started because Matt made the bikes that he and his friends 
wanted to ride: Evasion/Matt, Scapegoat/The Goat, Cheeco/Angelica, and 
Romanceur/Ronnie. That's pretty bold and subversive in a Riv way. And these 
are bikes that definitely didn't exist in any other form at the time. In 
many ways, the Bombora which Russ used in the comparisons is the most 
"normal" bike in the Crust lineup (Dan from Bike Insights made a flowchart 
and to get to the Bombora the answer is "Man, I just want a bike. I'm not a 
weirdo")

But even more than that, the team a Crust is then filled out with these 
personalities. Much like Riv highlighting their team through "Staff Bikes" 
and their Instagram account, Crust does that too with their Elevator to 
Hell videos. And both companies use their platform to raise awareness to 
causes they care about. Crust's sponsoring of the Slim One because they can 
and think it is the right thing to do is along the same lines as Riv's BRF 
experiment, though perhaps less controversial. And Grant being open about 
cash flow problems isn't that different from Crust taking a break over 
holidays and being open about feeling overwhelmed at the time. 

All this adds up to two companies that are almost as much about the people 
as the bikes. I find myself routing for Grant and Matt, hoping their 
projects work out even if I don't want that particular one for myself. I 
definitely can't say that about Surly or New Albion. In a way, both 
companies are a bit like custom builders because of that, you feel a 
personal connection. I think that is what the makes the Rivendell vs Crust 
comparison so unique. 

As far as guitarists: James Iha, Dave Navarro, John Frusciante. Yes, I am 
Gen X.

(Disclaimer: I will tip my hat to Velo Orange, especially when Chris at the 
helm, feels like a company that had a real personal touch and a sense of 
humor) 

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:

> Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan of 
> the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not he 
> is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public 
> service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not 
> really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have 
> a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I 
> would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be 
> better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and 
> sporty. On the other, he says the Riv's steering is quicker, but keeps 
> calling it relaxed and chill. Hard to tell, but it looks like maybe the 
> Bombora has more drop from saddle to bars. Who knows. 
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 12:15:36 PM UTC-5 mrg...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs Rivs 
>> with some tiny difference, Riv vs Crusts, Surlys, carbon TT bikes, 
>> everything. I want to see "I took my Electra Townie to a pump track", 
>> "super-low-trail bike vs penny farthing for grocery getter", "55 Atlantis 
>> 29er vs 56 Atlantis 650b", "Same bike with 12 different handlebar setups", 
>> etc.  
>>
>> I like what Russ at Path Less Pedaled is doing; he's all about the 
>> "non-competitive side of cycling" which aligns with RBW perfectly. 
>>
>> Mike 
>> Austin TX
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-6 bjmi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If I had a YouTube channel and wanted people to watch, click the like 
>>> button, subscribe, etc... I'd probably write titles that makes people want 
>>> to click them. When I go shopping for a car, I don't get bent about car 
>>> sales tactics that are there for a reason, even if they kind of annoy me. I 
>>> know I'm trying to be manipulated online with YouTube titles, I recognize 
>>> it, and I accept that it's something they have to do. 
>>>
>>> As for the aesthetic of the edits being rough, I don't know if this is 
>>> the case or not, but I think it's intentional. Russ has a background in 
>>> film and photography, so I have to think that producing videos with that 
>>> jumpiness is intended. 
>>>
>>> I'm not saying it's good or bad, but the jumpy edits could be argued to 
>>> be good because they do create a feeling of energy/excitement by 
>>> eliminating long pauses. 
>>>
>>> I could be (and usually am) totally wrong and Russ just throws these 
>>> together without thinking about it. But I think knowing his tendencies and 
>>> background, I'd say he means to do 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mark Roland]

Just to clarify, I'm certainly not getting bent because I'm not a fan of 
the video editing (or the content, for that matter.) And whether or not he 
is making money, or is trying to make money, or is performing a public 
service because he enjoys the luxury of enough free time to do so, is not 
really relevant. He is obviously sincere in what he does and seems to have 
a decent following. And good for him. After watching the video above, I 
would not be able to use it to make a decision as to which bike might be 
better for me. On the one hand, he refers to the Bombora as spicey and 
sporty. On the other, he says the Riv's steering is quicker, but keeps 
calling it relaxed and chill. Hard to tell, but it looks like maybe the 
Bombora has more drop from saddle to bars. Who knows. 

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 12:15:36 PM UTC-5 mrg...@gmail.com wrote:

> I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs Rivs 
> with some tiny difference, Riv vs Crusts, Surlys, carbon TT bikes, 
> everything. I want to see "I took my Electra Townie to a pump track", 
> "super-low-trail bike vs penny farthing for grocery getter", "55 Atlantis 
> 29er vs 56 Atlantis 650b", "Same bike with 12 different handlebar setups", 
> etc.  
>
> I like what Russ at Path Less Pedaled is doing; he's all about the 
> "non-competitive side of cycling" which aligns with RBW perfectly. 
>
> Mike 
> Austin TX
>
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-6 bjmi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> If I had a YouTube channel and wanted people to watch, click the like 
>> button, subscribe, etc... I'd probably write titles that makes people want 
>> to click them. When I go shopping for a car, I don't get bent about car 
>> sales tactics that are there for a reason, even if they kind of annoy me. I 
>> know I'm trying to be manipulated online with YouTube titles, I recognize 
>> it, and I accept that it's something they have to do. 
>>
>> As for the aesthetic of the edits being rough, I don't know if this is 
>> the case or not, but I think it's intentional. Russ has a background in 
>> film and photography, so I have to think that producing videos with that 
>> jumpiness is intended. 
>>
>> I'm not saying it's good or bad, but the jumpy edits could be argued to 
>> be good because they do create a feeling of energy/excitement by 
>> eliminating long pauses. 
>>
>> I could be (and usually am) totally wrong and Russ just throws these 
>> together without thinking about it. But I think knowing his tendencies and 
>> background, I'd say he means to do it.
>>
>> If it turns you off, that's totally fair and I'm not saying it shouldn't. 
>> He reminds me of John Green's YouTube videos...same kind of editing, no 
>> dead space, frenetic and fast paced energy, etc... 
>>
>> Ben "not an expert on video editing theory" in Omaha 
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-6 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> Laing wrote:* I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on 
>>> a video that they did not watch. *
>>> The PLP post is titled Rivendell vs. Crust. Which is Better?  There are 
>>> no models in the title, and that is what brings it to the realm of 
>>> clickbait. The OP also states right up front that the video is less 
>>> provocative.  Generally, Rivendell vs. Crust, some of the qualities that 
>>> separate them are disc brakes, more conventional chainstay lengths, and 
>>> yes, low trail. Based on the thrust of the thread starter, I would say 
>>> perfectly legitimate to comment without bothering to watch the actual video 
>>> referenced. Obviously a Sam Hillborne does not qualify as low trail. It may 
>>> be lower trail than bike x, but not low trail. I did find it mildly amusing 
>>> that he was noting the differences between 42.5 and 45.5 chainstays. He 
>>> should try a Susie!
>>>
>>> From an aesthetic point of view, I find his videos hard to watch due to 
>>> the editing/splicing. I wish he would let the camera roll through a bit 
>>> more--maybe he could have a cheat board of notes if he can't talk 
>>> extemporaneously. As it is, the video is noticeably spliced after every 
>>> sentence or two.  Maybe this is normal these days with vlogs, and it's just 
>>> me being old. Oh well.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-5 lconley wrote:
>>>
 I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
 they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
 trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
 is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.

 One word on guitarists: Hendrix.

 Laing

 On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:

> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I 
> enjoyed 
> the video and don't consider it 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mike Packard]

I love bike comparison videos of every kind. I want to see Rivs vs Rivs 
with some tiny difference, Riv vs Crusts, Surlys, carbon TT bikes, 
everything. I want to see "I took my Electra Townie to a pump track", 
"super-low-trail bike vs penny farthing for grocery getter", "55 Atlantis 
29er vs 56 Atlantis 650b", "Same bike with 12 different handlebar setups", 
etc.  

I like what Russ at Path Less Pedaled is doing; he's all about the 
"non-competitive side of cycling" which aligns with RBW perfectly. 

Mike 
Austin TX


On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-6 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> If I had a YouTube channel and wanted people to watch, click the like 
> button, subscribe, etc... I'd probably write titles that makes people want 
> to click them. When I go shopping for a car, I don't get bent about car 
> sales tactics that are there for a reason, even if they kind of annoy me. I 
> know I'm trying to be manipulated online with YouTube titles, I recognize 
> it, and I accept that it's something they have to do. 
>
> As for the aesthetic of the edits being rough, I don't know if this is the 
> case or not, but I think it's intentional. Russ has a background in film 
> and photography, so I have to think that producing videos with that 
> jumpiness is intended. 
>
> I'm not saying it's good or bad, but the jumpy edits could be argued to be 
> good because they do create a feeling of energy/excitement by eliminating 
> long pauses. 
>
> I could be (and usually am) totally wrong and Russ just throws these 
> together without thinking about it. But I think knowing his tendencies and 
> background, I'd say he means to do it.
>
> If it turns you off, that's totally fair and I'm not saying it shouldn't. 
> He reminds me of John Green's YouTube videos...same kind of editing, no 
> dead space, frenetic and fast paced energy, etc... 
>
> Ben "not an expert on video editing theory" in Omaha 
>
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-6 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> Laing wrote:* I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on 
>> a video that they did not watch. *
>> The PLP post is titled Rivendell vs. Crust. Which is Better?  There are 
>> no models in the title, and that is what brings it to the realm of 
>> clickbait. The OP also states right up front that the video is less 
>> provocative.  Generally, Rivendell vs. Crust, some of the qualities that 
>> separate them are disc brakes, more conventional chainstay lengths, and 
>> yes, low trail. Based on the thrust of the thread starter, I would say 
>> perfectly legitimate to comment without bothering to watch the actual video 
>> referenced. Obviously a Sam Hillborne does not qualify as low trail. It may 
>> be lower trail than bike x, but not low trail. I did find it mildly amusing 
>> that he was noting the differences between 42.5 and 45.5 chainstays. He 
>> should try a Susie!
>>
>> From an aesthetic point of view, I find his videos hard to watch due to 
>> the editing/splicing. I wish he would let the camera roll through a bit 
>> more--maybe he could have a cheat board of notes if he can't talk 
>> extemporaneously. As it is, the video is noticeably spliced after every 
>> sentence or two.  Maybe this is normal these days with vlogs, and it's just 
>> me being old. Oh well.
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-5 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
>>> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
>>> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
>>> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>>>
>>> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>>>
 FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
 it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I 
 enjoyed 
 the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
 this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?

 And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
 never heard of him but will now check him out.

 Tom Milani
 Alexandria, VA USA

 On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread 
> which is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to 
> the thread being a thread. 
>
> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
>> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
>> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
>> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Ben Mihovk]

If I had a YouTube channel and wanted people to watch, click the like 
button, subscribe, etc... I'd probably write titles that makes people want 
to click them. When I go shopping for a car, I don't get bent about car 
sales tactics that are there for a reason, even if they kind of annoy me. I 
know I'm trying to be manipulated online with YouTube titles, I recognize 
it, and I accept that it's something they have to do. 

As for the aesthetic of the edits being rough, I don't know if this is the 
case or not, but I think it's intentional. Russ has a background in film 
and photography, so I have to think that producing videos with that 
jumpiness is intended. 

I'm not saying it's good or bad, but the jumpy edits could be argued to be 
good because they do create a feeling of energy/excitement by eliminating 
long pauses. 

I could be (and usually am) totally wrong and Russ just throws these 
together without thinking about it. But I think knowing his tendencies and 
background, I'd say he means to do it.

If it turns you off, that's totally fair and I'm not saying it shouldn't. 
He reminds me of John Green's YouTube videos...same kind of editing, no 
dead space, frenetic and fast paced energy, etc... 

Ben "not an expert on video editing theory" in Omaha 


On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-6 Mark Roland wrote:

> Laing wrote:* I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a 
> video that they did not watch. *
> The PLP post is titled Rivendell vs. Crust. Which is Better?  There are no 
> models in the title, and that is what brings it to the realm of clickbait. 
> The OP also states right up front that the video is less provocative.  
> Generally, Rivendell vs. Crust, some of the qualities that separate them 
> are disc brakes, more conventional chainstay lengths, and yes, low trail. 
> Based on the thrust of the thread starter, I would say perfectly legitimate 
> to comment without bothering to watch the actual video referenced. 
> Obviously a Sam Hillborne does not qualify as low trail. It may be lower 
> trail than bike x, but not low trail. I did find it mildly amusing that he 
> was noting the differences between 42.5 and 45.5 chainstays. He should try 
> a Susie!
>
> From an aesthetic point of view, I find his videos hard to watch due to 
> the editing/splicing. I wish he would let the camera roll through a bit 
> more--maybe he could have a cheat board of notes if he can't talk 
> extemporaneously. As it is, the video is noticeably spliced after every 
> sentence or two.  Maybe this is normal these days with vlogs, and it's just 
> me being old. Oh well.
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-5 lconley wrote:
>
>> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
>> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
>> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
>> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>>
>> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
>>> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed 
>>> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
>>> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>>
>>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>>
>>> Tom Milani
>>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which 
 is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the 
 thread being a thread. 

 Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard

 On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
> that 
> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with 
>> the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
>> his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than 
>> it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. 
>> I know that their the only two 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Philip Barrett]

Path Less Pedalled is one of the good guys and I think Russ works alone out 
of his (unheated) garage in Montana which may account for some of the 
editing trickery? Personally I find it great that there is so much great 
stuff to watch out there for absolutely no cost, most of these creators are 
making maybe a few bucks a month doing this. If I don't agree with a 
channel I just click through.

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-6 Mark Roland wrote:

> Laing wrote:* I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a 
> video that they did not watch. *
> The PLP post is titled Rivendell vs. Crust. Which is Better?  There are no 
> models in the title, and that is what brings it to the realm of clickbait. 
> The OP also states right up front that the video is less provocative.  
> Generally, Rivendell vs. Crust, some of the qualities that separate them 
> are disc brakes, more conventional chainstay lengths, and yes, low trail. 
> Based on the thrust of the thread starter, I would say perfectly legitimate 
> to comment without bothering to watch the actual video referenced. 
> Obviously a Sam Hillborne does not qualify as low trail. It may be lower 
> trail than bike x, but not low trail. I did find it mildly amusing that he 
> was noting the differences between 42.5 and 45.5 chainstays. He should try 
> a Susie!
>
> From an aesthetic point of view, I find his videos hard to watch due to 
> the editing/splicing. I wish he would let the camera roll through a bit 
> more--maybe he could have a cheat board of notes if he can't talk 
> extemporaneously. As it is, the video is noticeably spliced after every 
> sentence or two.  Maybe this is normal these days with vlogs, and it's just 
> me being old. Oh well.
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-5 lconley wrote:
>
>> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
>> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
>> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
>> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>>
>> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
>>> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed 
>>> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
>>> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>>
>>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>>
>>> Tom Milani
>>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which 
 is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the 
 thread being a thread. 

 Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard

 On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way 
> that 
> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with 
>> the provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
>> his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than 
>> it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. 
>> I know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so 
>> I 
>> do it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt 
>> & 
>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
>> the 
>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
>> bikes 
>> had. 
>>
>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared 
>> to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most 
>> thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot 
>> take 
>> on the two?
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and 
>> important stuff for the bike 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mark Roland]

 Laing wrote:* I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a 
video that they did not watch. *
The PLP post is titled Rivendell vs. Crust. Which is Better?  There are no 
models in the title, and that is what brings it to the realm of clickbait. 
The OP also states right up front that the video is less provocative.  
Generally, Rivendell vs. Crust, some of the qualities that separate them 
are disc brakes, more conventional chainstay lengths, and yes, low trail. 
Based on the thrust of the thread starter, I would say perfectly legitimate 
to comment without bothering to watch the actual video referenced. 
Obviously a Sam Hillborne does not qualify as low trail. It may be lower 
trail than bike x, but not low trail. I did find it mildly amusing that he 
was noting the differences between 42.5 and 45.5 chainstays. He should try 
a Susie!

>From an aesthetic point of view, I find his videos hard to watch due to the 
editing/splicing. I wish he would let the camera roll through a bit 
more--maybe he could have a cheat board of notes if he can't talk 
extemporaneously. As it is, the video is noticeably spliced after every 
sentence or two.  Maybe this is normal these days with vlogs, and it's just 
me being old. Oh well.

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-5 lconley wrote:

> I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that 
> they did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low 
> trail" bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what 
> is in it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.
>
> One word on guitarists: Hendrix.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:
>
>> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
>> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed 
>> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
>> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>>
>> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd 
>> never heard of him but will now check him out.
>>
>> Tom Milani
>> Alexandria, VA USA
>>
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which 
>>> is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the 
>>> thread being a thread. 
>>>
>>> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
 comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
 "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
 Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way that 
 I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 

 On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
> his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than 
> it 
> could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I 
> do 
> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
> the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
> bikes 
> had. 
>
> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared 
> to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most 
> thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot 
> take 
> on the two?
>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and 
> important stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really 
> interesting collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along 
> the 
> lines of the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really 
> cool!
>


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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[lconley]

I get a big kick out of all the people with commentary on a video that they 
did not watch. As Tom pointed out, the Sam Hillborne is the "low trail" 
bike in this comparison - you need to watch the video to know what is in 
it. Note that I have one Crust (Scapegoat) and 12 Rivendells.

One word on guitarists: Hendrix.

Laing

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 8:09:04 AM UTC-5 Tom M wrote:

> FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said 
> it's 76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed 
> the video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked 
> this type of question all the time, so why not do a video?
>
> And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd never 
> heard of him but will now check him out.
>
> Tom Milani
> Alexandria, VA USA
>
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which 
>> is the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the 
>> thread being a thread. 
>>
>> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a 
>>> comparison, it's two very different approaches to what is considered the 
>>> "right" way for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a 
>>> Crust Lightning Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way that 
>>> I do *not *like low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>>
 The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
 provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
 " 

 The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
 his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
 could be? 

 I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
 know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
 it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
 Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
 aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
 the 
 Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
 saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
 bikes 
 had. 

 Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared 
 to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most 
 thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot 
 take 
 on the two?

 I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
 stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
 collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
 the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

['Tom M' via RBW Owners Bunch]

FWIW, the particular Crust Russ is reviewing isn't low trail — he said it's 
76 or 75 mm. I don't have a particular dog in the fight, and I enjoyed the 
video and don't consider it click-bait. As Russ said, he gets asked this 
type of question all the time, so why not do a video?

And re: guitarists—thanks to Philip for the Rory Gallagher link. I'd never 
heard of him but will now check him out.

Tom Milani
Alexandria, VA USA

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:18:44 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which is 
> the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the thread 
> being a thread. 
>
> Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a comparison, 
>> it's two very different approaches to what is considered the "right" way 
>> for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a Crust Lightning 
>> Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way that I do *not *like 
>> low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>
>>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>>> " 
>>>
>>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>>> could be? 
>>>
>>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>>> had. 
>>>
>>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>>> two?
>>>
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Joe Bernard]

Which - to be clear - is my response to the premise of the thread which is 
the premise of the Path Less Pedaled thing. I'm not objecting to the thread 
being a thread. 

Joe "let me say this about that" Bernard

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:02:16 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a comparison, 
> it's two very different approaches to what is considered the "right" way 
> for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a Crust Lightning 
> Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way that I do *not *like 
> low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>> had. 
>>
>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>> two?
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think a Riv vs. anything low trail really counts as a comparison, 
it's two very different approaches to what is considered the "right" way 
for a bicycle to handle. But my bias is extreme, I bought a Crust Lightning 
Bolt (disc) and hoo boy did I learn the expensive way that I do *not *like 
low trail. Rivs ride the way I need my bikes to ride. 

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
> could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
> had. 
>
> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
> two?
>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Ben Miller]

Well, I guess this thread has gone entirely OT.

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 6:03:33 PM UTC-8 Robert Tilley wrote:

> Richard Thompson is of the best I’ve seen. And a great songwriter. Right 
> now I’m leaning towards Robert Fripp but it’s hard to argue against 
> Thompson. 
>
> As far as bikes go, for me old Riv > Crust while Crust > new Riv. I can’t 
> really get into a lot of the newer frames Riv has put out but I love the 
> older models. I’m a Riv retrogrouch I guess.
>
> Robert Tilley
> San Diego, CA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 10, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Mike Godwin  wrote:
>
> Actually its Richard Thompson
>
>
> Mike SLO CA
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:17:49 AM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Totally agree on the Crust / Riv collaboration frame. That would be 
>> really neat. I love the idea of single-batch collaboration runs like this, 
>> and it would be cool to see more of them.  I tried to publicly connect 
>> Ocean Air Cycles and Rivendell to spark a MIT run of their Rambler frameset 
>> but it didn't work haha. 
>>
>> I imagine that collaborative frame being fairly sporty tubing but tons of 
>> tire clearance, and pretty long in the TT for upright bars or zero-reach 
>> drop setups 
>>
>> On Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 20:03:14 UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>>
>> -- 
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/7df20635-801e-426e-bb91-0156ae223a05n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[rltilley]

Richard Thompson is of the best I’ve seen. And a great songwriter. Right now 
I’m leaning towards Robert Fripp but it’s hard to argue against Thompson. 

As far as bikes go, for me old Riv > Crust while Crust > new Riv. I can’t 
really get into a lot of the newer frames Riv has put out but I love the older 
models. I’m a Riv retrogrouch I guess.

Robert Tilley
San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Mike Godwin  wrote:
> 
> Actually its Richard Thompson
> 
> Mike SLO CA
> 
>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:17:49 AM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>> Totally agree on the Crust / Riv collaboration frame. That would be really 
>> neat. I love the idea of single-batch collaboration runs like this, and it 
>> would be cool to see more of them.  I tried to publicly connect Ocean Air 
>> Cycles and Rivendell to spark a MIT run of their Rambler frameset but it 
>> didn't work haha. 
>> 
>> I imagine that collaborative frame being fairly sporty tubing but tons of 
>> tire clearance, and pretty long in the TT for upright bars or zero-reach 
>> drop setups 
>> 
>>> On Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 20:03:14 UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
> 
> -- 
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[George Rosselle]

I feel compelled to throw Tony McPhee into the running, but Jeff Beck is 
still my all time favorite. 
On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 5:52:07 PM UTC-5 divis...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Please; Allan Holdsworth. Who, curiously, was a lifelong road cyclist and 
> a bike repairman in the early stages of his musical career.
>
> http://www.bikeblognyc.com/2017/04/second-passion-of-allan-holdsworth/
>
> Peter "a former guitar repairman" Adler
> Berkeley, CA/USA
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 11:47:26 AM UTC-8 Mike Godwin wrote:
>
>> Actually its Richard Thompson
>>
>> Mike SLO CA
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:17:49 AM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> Totally agree on the Crust / Riv collaboration frame. That would be 
>>> really neat. I love the idea of single-batch collaboration runs like this, 
>>> and it would be cool to see more of them.  I tried to publicly connect 
>>> Ocean Air Cycles and Rivendell to spark a MIT run of their Rambler frameset 
>>> but it didn't work haha. 
>>>
>>> I imagine that collaborative frame being fairly sporty tubing but tons 
>>> of tire clearance, and pretty long in the TT for upright bars or zero-reach 
>>> drop setups 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 20:03:14 UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>>

 I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
 stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
 collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
 the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Peter Adler]

Please; Allan Holdsworth. Who, curiously, was a lifelong road cyclist and a 
bike repairman in the early stages of his musical career.

http://www.bikeblognyc.com/2017/04/second-passion-of-allan-holdsworth/

Peter "a former guitar repairman" Adler
Berkeley, CA/USA

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 11:47:26 AM UTC-8 Mike Godwin wrote:

> Actually its Richard Thompson
>
> Mike SLO CA
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:17:49 AM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Totally agree on the Crust / Riv collaboration frame. That would be 
>> really neat. I love the idea of single-batch collaboration runs like this, 
>> and it would be cool to see more of them.  I tried to publicly connect 
>> Ocean Air Cycles and Rivendell to spark a MIT run of their Rambler frameset 
>> but it didn't work haha. 
>>
>> I imagine that collaborative frame being fairly sporty tubing but tons of 
>> tire clearance, and pretty long in the TT for upright bars or zero-reach 
>> drop setups 
>>
>> On Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 20:03:14 UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mike Godwin]

Actually its Richard Thompson

Mike SLO CA

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:17:49 AM UTC-8 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Totally agree on the Crust / Riv collaboration frame. That would be really 
> neat. I love the idea of single-batch collaboration runs like this, and it 
> would be cool to see more of them.  I tried to publicly connect Ocean Air 
> Cycles and Rivendell to spark a MIT run of their Rambler frameset but it 
> didn't work haha. 
>
> I imagine that collaborative frame being fairly sporty tubing but tons of 
> tire clearance, and pretty long in the TT for upright bars or zero-reach 
> drop setups 
>
> On Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 20:03:14 UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Jason Fuller]

Totally agree on the Crust / Riv collaboration frame. That would be really 
neat. I love the idea of single-batch collaboration runs like this, and it 
would be cool to see more of them.  I tried to publicly connect Ocean Air 
Cycles and Rivendell to spark a MIT run of their Rambler frameset but it 
didn't work haha. 

I imagine that collaborative frame being fairly sporty tubing but tons of 
tire clearance, and pretty long in the TT for upright bars or zero-reach 
drop setups 

On Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 20:03:14 UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Ben Miller]

Some interesting ideas here! 

Mark says: "Clapton, Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter 
Green)lol." Well, I can't think Clapton, Beck and Page without thinking 
about Supergroups. So maybe I am thinking too small here... What about a 
collaboration between Grant, Matt, and JP? Petersen, Whitehead, and 
Weigle???  Haha

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 9:34:49 AM UTC-8 philipr...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> OT on...
>
> English = from the country of England
> British = from the countries of England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Island
>
> Growing up in post war Britain was drab, dreary & dark. While the US was 
> enjoying the greatest economic boom in history & the sun shone every day in 
> Southern California the British were still under rationing, plagued with 
> unemployment, industrial unrest & surrounded by the toll (both physical and 
> emotional) extracted by a total war. In other words, it was cold, dark, 
> gloomy, there were 2 channels on the TV, when the miners went on strike the 
> power went out and there was generally f*** all to do. So if you picked up 
> a musical instrument you had both the time & the inclination (get me the 
> hell out of here) to get really good at it!
>
> Combine all that time with latent talent and a ready supply of "exotic" 
> music brought back across the pond by merchant seaman and you had a 
> primordial stew just ready to produce winged flight. Then a lot of begating 
> started. It was a moment in time unlikely to ever repeat itself 
> unfortunately.
>
> Now check out Rory Gallagher (who was Irish actually), I'll start you off 
> here - 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlEfyMoR49M_channel=thanasisSkrepMetalo
>
> Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
>
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 11:15:43 AM UTC-6 Daman Mohan Kumar 
> wrote:
>
>> Firstly, apologies for the off-topic comment. Every last one of those 
>> guitarists Mark mentioned are English (or British, this is one of those 
>> things I absolutely cannot wrap my head around no matter how many times I 
>> read about it).
>>
>> No further comments, though - I just found it incredibly interesting how 
>> that bunch of stellar musicians came out of the same region.
>>
>> Daman
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:33:43 PM UTC-8 Mark Schneider wrote:
>>
>>> I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click 
>>> bate title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great 
>>> bikes, but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, 
>>> or my Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my 
>>> camera in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old 
>>> Masi if I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill 
>>> on one of the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
>>> I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
>>> Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
>>> I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
>>> level headed and fair. 
>>>
>>> Mark 
>>> Half Moon Bay area
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>>
 The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
 provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
 " 

 The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing 
 his Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
 could be? 

 I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
 know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
 it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
 Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
 aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing 
 the 
 Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
 saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust 
 bikes 
 had. 

 Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared 
 to Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most 
 thing's not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot 
 take 
 on the two?

 I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
 stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
 collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
 the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Philip Barrett]

OT on...

English = from the country of England
British = from the countries of England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Island

Growing up in post war Britain was drab, dreary & dark. While the US was 
enjoying the greatest economic boom in history & the sun shone every day in 
Southern California the British were still under rationing, plagued with 
unemployment, industrial unrest & surrounded by the toll (both physical and 
emotional) extracted by a total war. In other words, it was cold, dark, 
gloomy, there were 2 channels on the TV, when the miners went on strike the 
power went out and there was generally f*** all to do. So if you picked up 
a musical instrument you had both the time & the inclination (get me the 
hell out of here) to get really good at it!

Combine all that time with latent talent and a ready supply of "exotic" 
music brought back across the pond by merchant seaman and you had a 
primordial stew just ready to produce winged flight. Then a lot of begating 
started. It was a moment in time unlikely to ever repeat itself 
unfortunately.

Now check out Rory Gallagher (who was Irish actually), I'll start you off 
here 
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlEfyMoR49M_channel=thanasisSkrepMetalo

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 11:15:43 AM UTC-6 Daman Mohan Kumar 
wrote:

> Firstly, apologies for the off-topic comment. Every last one of those 
> guitarists Mark mentioned are English (or British, this is one of those 
> things I absolutely cannot wrap my head around no matter how many times I 
> read about it).
>
> No further comments, though - I just found it incredibly interesting how 
> that bunch of stellar musicians came out of the same region.
>
> Daman
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:33:43 PM UTC-8 Mark Schneider wrote:
>
>> I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click bate 
>> title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great bikes, 
>> but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, or my 
>> Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my camera 
>> in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old Masi if 
>> I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill on one of 
>> the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
>> I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
>> Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
>> I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
>> level headed and fair. 
>>
>> Mark 
>> Half Moon Bay area
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>
>>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>>> " 
>>>
>>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>>> could be? 
>>>
>>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>>> had. 
>>>
>>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>>> two?
>>>
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Daman Mohan Kumar]

Firstly, apologies for the off-topic comment. Every last one of those 
guitarists Mark mentioned are English (or British, this is one of those 
things I absolutely cannot wrap my head around no matter how many times I 
read about it).

No further comments, though - I just found it incredibly interesting how 
that bunch of stellar musicians came out of the same region.

Daman

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:33:43 PM UTC-8 Mark Schneider wrote:

> I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click bate 
> title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great bikes, 
> but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, or my 
> Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my camera 
> in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old Masi if 
> I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill on one of 
> the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
> I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
> Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
> I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
> level headed and fair. 
>
> Mark 
> Half Moon Bay area
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>> had. 
>>
>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>> two?
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Ben Mihovk]

I have an Atlantis and I am very interested in Crust. I just think they're 
cool as all get out. If someone gave enough money to go buy a new Crust 
Bombora and build it up, I'd probably just go look for a Rambouillet in my 
size :) 

Everything that Russ says about the differences in the Riv make me think 
that Crust isn't for me. I like "chill, supple, laid back." Even if I want 
to go find a lighter frame to try drops and faster riding, I'd still 
prioritize the things that Riv does that other's aren't (rim brakes, quill 
stem, geometry that accommodates upright posture, etc...). 

Love Russ and his videos. I look forward to his video updates almost as 
much as I do blahgs. 

Ben
On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-6 philipr...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Actually it's Rory Gallagher.
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 10:33:43 PM UTC-6 Mark Schneider wrote:
>
>> I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click bate 
>> title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great bikes, 
>> but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, or my 
>> Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my camera 
>> in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old Masi if 
>> I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill on one of 
>> the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
>> I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
>> Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
>> I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
>> level headed and fair. 
>>
>> Mark 
>> Half Moon Bay area
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>>
>>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>>> " 
>>>
>>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>>> could be? 
>>>
>>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>>> had. 
>>>
>>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>>> two?
>>>
>>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Philip Barrett]

Actually it's Rory Gallagher.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 10:33:43 PM UTC-6 Mark Schneider wrote:

> I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click bate 
> title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great bikes, 
> but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, or my 
> Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my camera 
> in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old Masi if 
> I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill on one of 
> the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
> I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
> Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
> I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
> level headed and fair. 
>
> Mark 
> Half Moon Bay area
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>> had. 
>>
>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>> two?
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Ryan M.]

I always enjoy Russ' videos and this one was also worth the watch. I've 
never ridden a Crust Bombora and can't compare it to my Rivs, so it's nice 
to get a comparison by someone who owns both. 

I've always liked the way my Rivs ride, and I've been through a few of 
them. 

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 10:03:14 PM UTC-6 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
> could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
> had. 
>
> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
> two?
>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Fullylugged]

Several frame makers over the years have copied (or tried to) the Rivendell 
design DNA. V-O, New Albion, Handsome and Rawland come to mind before the 
more recent Crust.  I rode someone's Norvindian and was surprise how UNLIKE 
my Riv it actually rode. I built a New Albion for a cousin and liked it 
(especially at its price point) but also, easy to tell the difference in 
ride.  Riv has evolved significantly since its beginning. A Long Low or 
Road does not ride anywhere near the same as a current long stay, slack 
angle, fat tire Joe Appa, Clem or even a Hillborne. I think, as Riv often 
says in their own ad copy, all their bikes still "have that Rivendell 
feel." I tend to agree with that.

As to which is "better," taste is always in the sense of the taster. I lean 
towards Rivendell and still recommend them to other riders looking for 
comfortable, useful bikes that are also rolling works of art.

Bruce 

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 10:33:43 PM UTC-6 Mark Schneider wrote:

> I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click bate 
> title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great bikes, 
> but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, or my 
> Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my camera 
> in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old Masi if 
> I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill on one of 
> the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
> I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
> Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
> I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
> level headed and fair. 
>
> Mark 
> Half Moon Bay area
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:
>
>> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
>> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
>> " 
>>
>> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
>> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
>> could be? 
>>
>> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
>> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
>> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
>> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
>> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
>> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
>> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
>> had. 
>>
>> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
>> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
>> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
>> two?
>>
>> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
>> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
>> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
>> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better?

[Mark Schneider]

I deliberately didn't bother to watch it because it's a stupid click bate 
title and a ridiculous premise. Like Ben stated they're both great bikes, 
but quite different. My custom Terafrerrma is nothing like my Masi, or my 
Homer or Atlantis. If I'm going on a long fastish ride but want my camera 
in my bag in front of me I take the low trail custom. I use the old Masi if 
I just want to ride hard and fast. But most the time I just chill on one of 
the Rivendell's that are still fast, fun, and plush.
I found the idea as ridiculous as people arguing who's better, Clapton, 
Page Beck, or Mick Taylor. (It's obviously Peter Green)lol.
I'm sure I'll watch the video eventually, Russ does a great job and he's 
level headed and fair. 

Mark 
Half Moon Bay area


On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 8:03:14 PM UTC-8 Ben Miller wrote:

> The "Path Less Pedaled" YouTube channel just released a video with the 
> provocative title "Rivendell vs Crust! Which is Better? 
> " 
>
> The actual video is a lot less provocative. Basically Russ comparing his 
> Hillborne to his Bombora. Still interesting, but maybe less so than it 
> could be? 
>
> I imagine Crust and Rivendell must get compared to each other a lot. I 
> know that their the only two bike frames I currently own and ride, so I do 
> it more or less constantly. I imagine that this is partly due to Matt & 
> Bene purposefully designing the Romanceur frame with the Rivendell 
> aesthetic in mind. I think Russ sort of touches on that, when comparing the 
> Bombora to the All City and the Hillborne to the Richtey. He seems to be 
> saying, the Ritchey/All City aesthetic lacked something the Riv/Crust bikes 
> had. 
>
> Anyways, I think of Crust as threadless, disc, and low trail compared to 
> Rivendell with rim brakes, quill stems, and high trail. Like most thing's 
> not hard and fast (see: Canti Lightning Bolt). What's your hot take on the 
> two?
>
> I think both bike companies are really doing some amazing and important 
> stuff for the bike industry. What I think would be really interesting 
> collaboration between Grant and Matt. Maybe something along the lines of 
> the Soma San Marcos, but both providing inputs. That'd be really cool!
>

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