Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[John Baughman via 4D_Tech]

I am going to chime in here with a recent real world experience.

A while back I posted to the NUG a problem that I was having with external data 
storage using custom mode. When the data was updated and properly saved to the 
external data folder, the field continued to display the old version of the 
data until the server or standalone 4D was restarted. This was a show stopper 
for me upgrading a client to v16.

I called tech support and after uploading a sample db demonstrating the problem 
was told that it was in fact a bug and a bug case was opened for it. This bug 
existed in 16.1 and R4 beta.

I then called Tracy, my sales rep, and asked her to expedite the bug.

A couple of weeks ago I received a message from 4D TS saying the bug was fixed 
in the latest nightly build of 16.1. I confirmed the fix, but noted that it was 
still broken in R4 beta. TS acknowledged this and said that the fix would not 
show up in the R releases until R5.

16.2 was released and as expected no bug.

Today R4 was released and voila the bug has been fixed. 

Now in the context of this thread, this appears to be an anomaly? It does say 
to me that 4D does heavily prioritize the bugs in their bug list. For example, 
you might have noticed that in 16.2 the issue with the Design Environment not 
remembering the open windows from the last session has been fixed. Not so in 
R4. Interesting, yes?

For me personally, I am not one to complain. I may be naive, but I trust that 
the folks working on 4D are doing the best they can. Sure there could be 
improvements, but I am one to live with what I got and be patient for what is 
yet to come. 

I understand the frustrations, but that is my 2 cents worth.

John





> On Oct 4, 2017, at 7:21 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> If you have a bug that you really want fixes:  you need to work with Tech
> Support.  If you don’t: then it’s just wishful thinking.
> 
> I have done this. It's a bug that 4D should care about *way* more than me.
> It crashes the server. Easily Submitted to tech support with a demo
> database, etc.
> 
> It is NOT MY FAULT that 4D doesn't fix properly reported bugs. It is NOT
> OUR FAULT. It is their fault.
> 
> I'm getting tired of hearing from people that someone bugs aren't being
> fixed because we're somehow mysteriously doing it wrong. I also appreciate
> that I'm one of the very people that spit out that line over, and over
> again down the years on this list.
> 
> Here's a list of positions that I can no longer accept on face value:
> 
> "We aren't documenting that because it might change."
> This is silly in the extreme. Every piece of software might change, lots of
> them say "This might change in a future version." Even 4D says this clearly
> in their docs. So when you hear that line, it's an excuse for something
> else - who knows what.
> 
> "It isn't Tech Support's job to report bugs."
> Of course it is.
> 
> "You have to <> to get you bug fixed."
> 1. It's not my bug, it's THEIR bug. They're not doing me a favor.
> 2. Jumping through the hoops makes no particular impact that I can see.
> 
> "Feature requests should be submitted through the appropriate section of
> the forums where there is open voting."
> True. Does this get feature requests implemented? Not as far as I can tell.
> (Well, I did see one - but it was from Rob and he's got a special
> relationship with 4D.) My cynical interpretation is that the feature
> request forum exists to stop people complaining about missing features.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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John Baughman
Kailua, Hawaii
(808) 262-0328
john...@hawaii.rr.com





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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Oct 4, 2017, at 7:54 PM, David Adams  wrote:

> That sounds *awesome*. Any chance that you would do a 4DMETHOD or 4D Summit
> presentation on this?

I agree with David. I’d love to see how all this works. I’d love to add this to 
one of my existing 4D applications.

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Walt Nelson via 4D_Tech]

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com 
> > wrote:
> 
> That sounds very interesting - I'd love to see some screen shots. And I
> think it would make a very good Summit presentation

Pat,

For short documentation/training, I use Clarify:

http://www.clarify-it.com/learn 

It is on Mac & Windows.

Great product with good training.

Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
New stuff coming!
www.foundationshell.com 
w...@foundationshell.com 

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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech]

Steve,
That sounds very interesting - I'd love to see some screen shots. And I
think it would make a very good Summit presentation!
Pat

On 4 October 2017 at 16:06, Stephen J. Orth 
wrote:

> Pat,
>
> Completely agree on your comment about video!
>
> We started doing video's about a year ago.  Our videos are based upon the
> most frequent TS cases opened by our clients, so it is relevant to what is
> currently being requested of our TS Team.
>
> We then created an interface in our system called the "Training Center"
> and this is simply a form with a HL and a web area on it.  All of our
> documentation (PDF, Excel & video) is stored on our web site, along with a
> file called "Index.html".  This index page is a specifically formatted
> document which contains all the information necessary to create a HL of
> available documentation (broken down into various categories and security
> levels).
>
> The majority of the screen is the web area, so when a user clicks an item
> in the HL, the document is loaded into the web area for presentation.  We
> chose to implement this way because we can add new documentation to the web
> site at any point in time, and all our customers are instantly updated!
>
> Let me know if you would like to see a screen shot or anything...
>
> Best,
>
>
> Steve
>
> *
>   Stephen J. Orth
>   The Aquila Group, Inc. Office:  (608) 834-9213
>   P.O. Box 690   Mobile:  (608) 347-6447
>   Sun Prairie, WI 53590
>
>   E-Mail:  s.o...@the-aquila-group.com
> *
> -Original Message-
> From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of Pat
> Bensky via 4D_Tech
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 9:55 AM
> To: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>
> Cc: Pat Bensky ; 4D iNug Technical <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> Subject: Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?
>
> Thank y'all for your helpful responses.
> I think what I'll try is a little modification to Tom's code:
>
> If(Find in array(aListOfMorons;current user))
>make a video showing them what to do
> else
>   // normal operation
> end if
>
> Actually it's quicker to make a little video than to write an email, and
> with some people this is a better approach.
>
> Pat
>
> On 4 October 2017 at 15:29, Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>
> wrote:
>
> > As Doug said different people learn differently.
> >
> > Things to try:
> > - more or different style of training. i.e. instead of a presentation
> > give written documentation, instead of written documentation, show the
> > user and ask them to take their own notes (this helps as they have to
> > think through the process as they write), instead of any sort of
> > written/shown direction, tell them the necessary steps (some people can
> > not process visually well and still retain the information).
> >
> > more of a stick then carrot...
> > - IF the support you are providing costs $ (i.e. the customer is paying
> > for it), make sure to include the support requester's boss, or other
> > designated client-side support contact. As potentially, they will track
> > the requests and costs associated with support requests.
> > - implement a support limit (after which a cost burden is incurred -
> > you can always wave this to make the customer happy, appear to be
> > giving them a break), the client is allowed X amount of free support
> > time, or y amount of support calls, or z amount of support email
> > requests. Document heavy support users in feedback to the client.
> >
> > remember:
> > “Think of how stupid the *average* person is, and realize half of them
> > are stupider than that.”
> > ― George Carlin  (emphasis mine)
> >
> > Also :
> > "Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
> > and despite the changing fortunes of time,
> > There is always a big future in computer maintenance."
> >
> > You are a fluke of the universe.
> > You have no right to be here.
> > And whether you can hear it or not,
> > The universe is laughing behind your back.
> > - National Lampoon : Deteriorata
> >
> > Full Lyrics:
> > http://www.songlyrics.com/national-lampoon/deteriorata-lyrics/
> > Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk (missing the
> > intro 20 seconds but has great animation)
> >
> > On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:39:59 +0100, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech wrote:
> > > Users are beginning to get to me :)
> > > Some of them WILL NOT follow instructions to accomplish something, no
> > > matter how simple those instructions are.
> > > I currently have one who is particularly bad!
> > > I sent him an email detailing how to accomplish a particular task. It
> > > contained an easy-to-follow 1-2-3 step-by-step guide with screenshots.
> I
> > > spent ages writing it.
> > > He called a bit later that day to say that it didn't work.
> > > Did a screen-share with him and it was 

RE: 4D Client as Web Server - How to monitor

[Randy Engle via 4D_Tech]

Hi John,

Thanks for info.

Yes, something like this seems the best approach

Randy Engle, Director
XC2 Software LLC – XC2LIVE!

-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of John Baughman 
via 4D_Tech
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2017 3:28 PM
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Cc: John Baughman 
Subject: Re: 4D Client as Web Server - How to monitor

At first I thought, hey an excellent place for Call Worker or Call Form. Then 
after thinking it though decided that would be more complicated then needed.

 If it were me, I would put an object field in a table, in my case my constants 
table, and pass the status in that field. Using this field there would be many 
options to monitoring the status of the web server from any 4D client or 4D  
server at any time. The field can be updated by the web server client when 
starting and shutting down itself and/or the web server, making it’s status 
known to all clients and 4D server in real time without any communications. If, 
as in your case, you need to periodically check to see if the Web Server is in 
fact still running or has crashed, you can use EXECUTE ON CLIENT…

--
//Web ServerClient On Startup
REGISTER CLIENT(“WebServerClient”)
Start Web Server
C_OBJECT($oWebServerStatus)
OB SET($oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Running”;……more info aa needed)
READ WRITE([Constants])
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
[Constants]oWebServerStatus:= $oWebServerStatus
SAVE RECORD([Constants])
UNLOAD RECORD([Constants])
READ ONLY([Constants])

//Client doing the checking
READ WRITE([Constants])
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
OB SET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Testing”)
SAVE RECORD([Constants])
UNLOAD RECORD([Constants])
READ ONLY([Constants])
EXECUTE ON CLIENT(“WebServerClient”;”WebServerStatusMethod”)

ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
While (OB GET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”)=“Testing”)
Pause process …. ?maybe not needed?
All records([Constants]) //only one record in the constants 
table. Need this to reflect any changes made by the WebServer Client

End While

If (OB GET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”)=“Running”)
//Do whatever if running

Else
//Do whatever if not running

End If

//Web ServerClient WebServerStatusMethod
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
Case of
:(OB GET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”)=“Testing”)
C_OBJECT($oWebServerStatus)
Test web server
If (web server is running)
OB 
SET($oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Running”;……more info aa needed)

else
OB SET($oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Not 
Running”;……more info aa needed)

End If
READ WRITE([Constants])
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants 
table
[Constants]oWebServerStatus:= $oWebServerStatus
SAVE RECORD([Constants])
UNLOAD RECORD([Constants])
READ ONLY([Constants]

End Case

———



John
> On Oct 4, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Randy Engle via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Those of you who have 4D Client acting as web server:
> 
> I've got 4D client working great as a web server.
> 
> Now I like to "know" that the web server is running from another client.
> 
> I'd love to have the same functionality as the Execute on Server attribute
>   But for a specific client
>   Not available, that I know of
> 
> I've got a few options that I can think of:
> 
> I'm not enthused about any of them
> I'd like to think there's a much easier way.
> Hopefully I'm just being dense.
> 
> 1.Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
>   Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
>   Send back an EXECUTE ON CLIENT to the "calling" Client with the results
>   (would require a "Delay" until received info)
> 
> 2.Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
>   Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
>   Have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
> PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
>   (or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
>   Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server
>   (would require a "Delay" until received info)
> 
> 3.Have the Web Server client continually loop (every minute or so)
>   And have the client 

Re: 4D Client as Web Server - How to monitor

[John Baughman via 4D_Tech]

At first I thought, hey an excellent place for Call Worker or Call Form. Then 
after thinking it though decided that would be more complicated then needed.

 If it were me, I would put an object field in a table, in my case my constants 
table, and pass the status in that field. Using this field there would be many 
options to monitoring the status of the web server from any 4D client or 4D  
server at any time. The field can be updated by the web server client when 
starting and shutting down itself and/or the web server, making it’s status 
known to all clients and 4D server in real time without any communications. If, 
as in your case, you need to periodically check to see if the Web Server is in 
fact still running or has crashed, you can use EXECUTE ON CLIENT…

--
//Web ServerClient On Startup
REGISTER CLIENT(“WebServerClient”)
Start Web Server
C_OBJECT($oWebServerStatus)
OB SET($oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Running”;……more info aa needed)
READ WRITE([Constants])
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
[Constants]oWebServerStatus:= $oWebServerStatus
SAVE RECORD([Constants])
UNLOAD RECORD([Constants])
READ ONLY([Constants])

//Client doing the checking
READ WRITE([Constants])
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
OB SET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Testing”)
SAVE RECORD([Constants])
UNLOAD RECORD([Constants])
READ ONLY([Constants])
EXECUTE ON CLIENT(“WebServerClient”;”WebServerStatusMethod”)

ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
While (OB GET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”)=“Testing”)
Pause process …. ?maybe not needed?
All records([Constants]) //only one record in the constants 
table. Need this to reflect any changes made by the WebServer Client

End While

If (OB GET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”)=“Running”)
//Do whatever if running

Else
//Do whatever if not running

End If

//Web ServerClient WebServerStatusMethod
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants table
Case of
:(OB GET([Constants]oWebServerStatus;”Status”)=“Testing”)
C_OBJECT($oWebServerStatus)
Test web server
If (web server is running)
OB 
SET($oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Running”;……more info aa needed)

else
OB SET($oWebServerStatus;”Status”;”Not 
Running”;……more info aa needed)

End If
READ WRITE([Constants])
ALL RECORDS([Constants]) //only 1 record in constants 
table
[Constants]oWebServerStatus:= $oWebServerStatus
SAVE RECORD([Constants])
UNLOAD RECORD([Constants])
READ ONLY([Constants]

End Case

———



John
> On Oct 4, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Randy Engle via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Those of you who have 4D Client acting as web server:
> 
> I've got 4D client working great as a web server.
> 
> Now I like to "know" that the web server is running from another client.
> 
> I'd love to have the same functionality as the Execute on Server attribute
>   But for a specific client
>   Not available, that I know of
> 
> I've got a few options that I can think of:
> 
> I'm not enthused about any of them
> I'd like to think there's a much easier way.
> Hopefully I'm just being dense.
> 
> 1.Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
>   Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
>   Send back an EXECUTE ON CLIENT to the "calling" Client with the results
>   (would require a "Delay" until received info)
> 
> 2.Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
>   Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
>   Have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
> PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
>   (or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
>   Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server
>   (would require a "Delay" until received info)
> 
> 3.Have the Web Server client continually loop (every minute or so)
>   And have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
> PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
>   (or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
>   Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server
> 
> 4.Do an HTTP Get on the Web Server Client
>   NOTE:
>   OK if the web server is running
>   If web server not running, there is a long delay before HTTP get 
> returns with the status code.
>   So, not an option
> 
> 
> 

Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Steve,

That looks great! Thanks for the screen shots, they really show what you
were talking about.

Curious: Do the pictures show up on the NUG? If we can post pictures
there...I'd like to know.
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OBJ Module and 4D v16R4

[Cannon Smith via 4D_Tech]

If you are trying to use the OBJ module in 4D v16R4, you will encounter errors. 
The errors have to do with not recognizing the new collection type. The fix is 
easy, requiring two lines to be changed:

In the OBJ_IsEqual method, line 47 should now be:

: (($alFirstType{$x}=Object array) | ($alFirstType{$x}=Is collection))


In the OBJ_Get_ArraySize method, line 20 should now be:

If ((OB Get type($oSubObject;$tLastKey)=Object array) | (OB Get 
type($oSubObject;$tLastKey)=Is collection))  //Will be true for any array type

HTH.

--
Cannon.Smith
Synergy Farm Solutions Inc.
Hill Spring, AB Canada
403-626-3236




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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 5 :06 PM, Stephen J. Orth via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Pat,
>
> Completely agree on your comment about video!
>
> 
>


> Let me know if you would like to see a screen shot or anything...
>

That sounds *awesome*. Any chance that you would do a 4DMETHOD or 4D Summit
presentation on this?
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Re: 4D Client as Web Server - How to monitor

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

Couldn’t you launch a server process and look for web server running on a 
client? I don’t use web server so don’t know if a name or what name is there. 
but if it is you can find out if running already

Additionally I believe execute on client does exist. Not sure but you could 
launch a server process and execute on client to see

Hope this helps 
Regards
Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable 
law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby 
notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, 
modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is 
strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this message to any person other than the 
intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, 
privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication. 

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 2:41 PM, Randy Engle via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Those of you who have 4D Client acting as web server:
> 
> I've got 4D client working great as a web server.
> 
> Now I like to "know" that the web server is running from another client.
> 
> I'd love to have the same functionality as the Execute on Server attribute
>   But for a specific client
>   Not available, that I know of
> 
> I've got a few options that I can think of:
> 
> I'm not enthused about any of them
> I'd like to think there's a much easier way.
> Hopefully I'm just being dense.
> 
> 1.Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
>   Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
>   Send back an EXECUTE ON CLIENT to the "calling" Client with the results
>   (would require a "Delay" until received info)
> 
> 2.Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
>   Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
>   Have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
> PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
>   (or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
>   Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server
>   (would require a "Delay" until received info)
> 
> 3.Have the Web Server client continually loop (every minute or so)
>   And have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
> PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
>   (or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
>   Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server
> 
> 4.Do an HTTP Get on the Web Server Client
>   NOTE:
>   OK if the web server is running
>   If web server not running, there is a long delay before HTTP get 
> returns with the status code.
>   So, not an option
> 
> 
> Any other ideas from the 4D Brainiacs?
> 
> Gracious Thanks!
> 
> Randy Engle, Director
> XC2 Software LLC – XC2LIVE!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
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RE: 4D Client as Web Server - How to monitor

[Randy Engle via 4D_Tech]

Those of you who have 4D Client acting as web server:

I've got 4D client working great as a web server.

Now I like to "know" that the web server is running from another client.

I'd love to have the same functionality as the Execute on Server attribute
But for a specific client
Not available, that I know of

I've got a few options that I can think of:

I'm not enthused about any of them
I'd like to think there's a much easier way.
Hopefully I'm just being dense.

1.  Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
Send back an EXECUTE ON CLIENT to the "calling" Client with the results
(would require a "Delay" until received info)

2.  Get the "Registered Name" of the Web server client
Send an EXECUTE ON CLIENT asking Web client if server is running
Have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
(or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server
(would require a "Delay" until received info)

3.  Have the Web Server client continually loop (every minute or so)
And have the client send an object with the web server info using SET 
PROCESS VARIABLE to the Server
(or EXECUTE ON SERVER)
Have the original calling client GET PROCESS VARIABLE from server

4.  Do an HTTP Get on the Web Server Client
NOTE:
OK if the web server is running
If web server not running, there is a long delay before HTTP get 
returns with the status code.
So, not an option


Any other ideas from the 4D Brainiacs?

Gracious Thanks!

Randy Engle, Director
XC2 Software LLC – XC2LIVE!




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Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

> If you have a bug that you really want fixes:  you need to work with Tech
Support.  If you don’t: then it’s just wishful thinking.

I have done this. It's a bug that 4D should care about *way* more than me.
It crashes the server. Easily Submitted to tech support with a demo
database, etc.

It is NOT MY FAULT that 4D doesn't fix properly reported bugs. It is NOT
OUR FAULT. It is their fault.

I'm getting tired of hearing from people that someone bugs aren't being
fixed because we're somehow mysteriously doing it wrong. I also appreciate
that I'm one of the very people that spit out that line over, and over
again down the years on this list.

Here's a list of positions that I can no longer accept on face value:

"We aren't documenting that because it might change."
This is silly in the extreme. Every piece of software might change, lots of
them say "This might change in a future version." Even 4D says this clearly
in their docs. So when you hear that line, it's an excuse for something
else - who knows what.

"It isn't Tech Support's job to report bugs."
Of course it is.

"You have to <> to get you bug fixed."
1. It's not my bug, it's THEIR bug. They're not doing me a favor.
2. Jumping through the hoops makes no particular impact that I can see.

"Feature requests should be submitted through the appropriate section of
the forums where there is open voting."
True. Does this get feature requests implemented? Not as far as I can tell.
(Well, I did see one - but it was from Rob and he's got a special
relationship with 4D.) My cynical interpretation is that the feature
request forum exists to stop people complaining about missing features.

Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Number format

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Using this format ###,##0;###,##0-; the number 0,85 is not displayed.



Il 04/10/2017 16:53, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 18:28:36 -0400
From: Jeremy French
To: 4D iNUG Technical<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: Number format
Message-ID:<0840df29-2c31-48e3-8be5-400c3a5fd...@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

The pattern to control the display of a zero value has 3-parts, separated by a 
semicolon. Note the 2-semicolons:

positive_format;negative_format;zero_format

To display nothing for a zero value, put nothing after the second semi-colon.

So this display filter will show positive and negative numbers, but display 
nothing for a zero value when the object doesn’t have focus:

###,##0;-###,##0;




On Oct 3, 2017, at 5:59 PM, stardata.info via 4D_Tech<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>   
wrote:

In one listbox, i need to display a number format so if the value is zero not 
display anything.
I try to insert the format ###.##0,##0 but not work properly.




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Re: OSX upgrade and paths

[Milan Adamov via 4D_Tech]

> On 4Oct, 2017, at 17:40, Malcolm Stone via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Apple says that this OSX upgrade makes changes to the file system, is that a 
> factor here?

High Sierra doesn’t make changes to file system, it changes file system 
completely.

Milan

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OSX upgrade and paths

[Malcolm Stone via 4D_Tech]

Recent behavior change:
- method calls EXPORT TEXT([table];$filename)
- filename is in the format "Macintosh HD:Users:user:Documents:folder:file.txt"
- export is successful but an additional (zero byte) file with a gibberish name 
is generated in the same folder.

extra file example: ADBD2E8CF8824E98ACF8AB77D8714F12.temp

This seems to coincide with having upgraded Mac to High Sierra (10.13)

test path name($filename) returns Is a document

Apple says that this OSX upgrade makes changes to the file system, is that a 
factor here?

Malcolm
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Re: SQL Pivot

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

In 4D? I have not looked but don;t believe it is implemented. If using SQL 
server try the following web site for help 
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ 


Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable 
law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby 
notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, 
modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is 
strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this message to any person other than the 
intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, 
privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication. 

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 7:47 AM, Rob Nahon via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We want to use Pivot in a 4D SQL query.
> See for example: 
> https://www.codeproject.com/Tips/500811/Simple-Way-To-Use-Pivot-In-SQL-Query 
> 
> 
> Any ideas or suggestions?

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SQL Pivot

[Rob Nahon via 4D_Tech]

Hello,

We want to use Pivot in a 4D SQL query.
See for example: 
https://www.codeproject.com/Tips/500811/Simple-Way-To-Use-Pivot-In-SQL-Query

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks…Rob Nahon
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Re: Number format

[Roger Reed – Illus House via 4D_Tech]

There is a contradiction between your two messages:
>> the format ###.##0,##0
> the value: 0,85
That format cannot display those digits for that value. If you’re using a 
non-English system, the best you can expect is to see is 0,850
In either case, this isn’t a “zero value” unless you’re talking about an 
individual digit, in which case, you already know to use “#”, not “0”.
Thirdly, if there is no typo, this is an unusual numerical format to have two 
placeholding zeroes. Check two things: which language standard is your system 
using to format numbers, and which language standard is 4D using to format 
numbers?

Roger

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 08:15, stardata.info via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeremy,
> 
> I know this and i try, but not work.
> This format not display the value: 0,85
> 
> Thanks
> /Ferdinando/
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 18:28:36 -0400
> From: Jeremy French
> To: 4D iNUG Technical<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> Subject: Re: Number format
> Message-ID:<0840df29-2c31-48e3-8be5-400c3a5fd...@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> The pattern to control the display of a zero value has 3-parts, separated by 
> a semicolon. Note the 2-semicolons:
> 
> positive_format;negative_format;zero_format
> 
> To display nothing for a zero value, put nothing after the second semi-colon.
> 
> So this display filter will show positive and negative numbers, but display 
> nothing for a zero value when the object doesn’t have focus:
> 
> ###,##0;-###,##0;
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 5:59 PM, stardata.info via 4D_Tech<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> In one listbox, i need to display a number format so if the value is zero 
>> not display anything.
>> I try to insert the format ###.##0,##0 but not work properly.
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Ortwin Zillgen via 4D_Tech]

> How do you deal with people like this?

install a well done-award, good guy-carrot, when accomplished
and let him/her see during screensharing session



Regards
O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
-
   
 
member of developer-network 

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Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[Tony Ringsmuth via 4D_Tech]

David,

In my opinion, Stability has improved A LOT since the R-release program.
I was able to put my OEM base of clients on 16.0 HF2. 

There are new features I really look forward to:  in some ways – they’re 
getting fewer & farther between: just because 4D has advanced.

I think the idea of asking 4D to make a whole version dedicated to just bug 
fixes: no new features is a poor idea.

If you have a bug that you really want fixes:  you need to work with Tech 
Support.  If you don’t: then it’s just wishful thinking.

Tony




On 10/3/17, 2:46 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of David Adams via 4D_Tech" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

...but seriously, what I'd like to see 4D do is an *entire release* that
consists of *nothing* but fixing bugs - as many as they can find, as many
as we can find and longstanding annoyances. No fancy new features. Just
cleaning up crashes, usability bugs (I see lingering 2004 or V11 usability
bugs in the Design environment every single day in V16) and other weird
stuff.

From what I've ever heard, this is what the bulk of developers *actually*
want.



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RE: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Stephen J. Orth via 4D_Tech]

Pat,

Completely agree on your comment about video!

We started doing video's about a year ago.  Our videos are based upon the most 
frequent TS cases opened by our clients, so it is relevant to what is currently 
being requested of our TS Team.

We then created an interface in our system called the "Training Center" and 
this is simply a form with a HL and a web area on it.  All of our documentation 
(PDF, Excel & video) is stored on our web site, along with a file called 
"Index.html".  This index page is a specifically formatted document which 
contains all the information necessary to create a HL of available 
documentation (broken down into various categories and security levels).

The majority of the screen is the web area, so when a user clicks an item in 
the HL, the document is loaded into the web area for presentation.  We chose to 
implement this way because we can add new documentation to the web site at any 
point in time, and all our customers are instantly updated!

Let me know if you would like to see a screen shot or anything...

Best,


Steve

*
  Stephen J. Orth
  The Aquila Group, Inc. Office:  (608) 834-9213
  P.O. Box 690   Mobile:  (608) 347-6447
  Sun Prairie, WI 53590

  E-Mail:  s.o...@the-aquila-group.com
*
-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of Pat Bensky via 
4D_Tech
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>
Cc: Pat Bensky ; 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

Thank y'all for your helpful responses.
I think what I'll try is a little modification to Tom's code:

If(Find in array(aListOfMorons;current user))
   make a video showing them what to do
else
  // normal operation
end if

Actually it's quicker to make a little video than to write an email, and
with some people this is a better approach.

Pat

On 4 October 2017 at 15:29, Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote:

> As Doug said different people learn differently.
>
> Things to try:
> - more or different style of training. i.e. instead of a presentation
> give written documentation, instead of written documentation, show the
> user and ask them to take their own notes (this helps as they have to
> think through the process as they write), instead of any sort of
> written/shown direction, tell them the necessary steps (some people can
> not process visually well and still retain the information).
>
> more of a stick then carrot...
> - IF the support you are providing costs $ (i.e. the customer is paying
> for it), make sure to include the support requester's boss, or other
> designated client-side support contact. As potentially, they will track
> the requests and costs associated with support requests.
> - implement a support limit (after which a cost burden is incurred -
> you can always wave this to make the customer happy, appear to be
> giving them a break), the client is allowed X amount of free support
> time, or y amount of support calls, or z amount of support email
> requests. Document heavy support users in feedback to the client.
>
> remember:
> “Think of how stupid the *average* person is, and realize half of them
> are stupider than that.”
> ― George Carlin  (emphasis mine)
>
> Also :
> "Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
> and despite the changing fortunes of time,
> There is always a big future in computer maintenance."
>
> You are a fluke of the universe.
> You have no right to be here.
> And whether you can hear it or not,
> The universe is laughing behind your back.
> - National Lampoon : Deteriorata
>
> Full Lyrics:
> http://www.songlyrics.com/national-lampoon/deteriorata-lyrics/
> Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk (missing the
> intro 20 seconds but has great animation)
>
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:39:59 +0100, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech wrote:
> > Users are beginning to get to me :)
> > Some of them WILL NOT follow instructions to accomplish something, no
> > matter how simple those instructions are.
> > I currently have one who is particularly bad!
> > I sent him an email detailing how to accomplish a particular task. It
> > contained an easy-to-follow 1-2-3 step-by-step guide with screenshots. I
> > spent ages writing it.
> > He called a bit later that day to say that it didn't work.
> > Did a screen-share with him and it was obvious that he hadn't followed
> the
> > instructions. I asked him:
> > "Did you read my email?|
> > "Oh", he replied, "I didn't read the whole thing."
> >
> > ARGH!!!
> >
> > He has just done the same thing again today (with a different procedure).
> > Also I explained (in a email that he can re-read as often as necessary)
> why
> > another feature wasn't working the way 

Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

OK how about another option Implement foot runner ? and send a file to execute. 
One line of instructions. Here run this!

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable 
law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby 
notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, 
modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is 
strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this message to any person other than the 
intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, 
privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication. 

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 10:55 AM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Thank y'all for your helpful responses.
> I think what I'll try is a little modification to Tom's code:
> 
> If(Find in array(aListOfMorons;current user))
>   make a video showing them what to do
> else
>  // normal operation
> end if
> 
> Actually it's quicker to make a little video than to write an email, and
> with some people this is a better approach.

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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech]

Thank y'all for your helpful responses.
I think what I'll try is a little modification to Tom's code:

If(Find in array(aListOfMorons;current user))
   make a video showing them what to do
else
  // normal operation
end if

Actually it's quicker to make a little video than to write an email, and
with some people this is a better approach.

Pat

On 4 October 2017 at 15:29, Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote:

> As Doug said different people learn differently.
>
> Things to try:
> - more or different style of training. i.e. instead of a presentation
> give written documentation, instead of written documentation, show the
> user and ask them to take their own notes (this helps as they have to
> think through the process as they write), instead of any sort of
> written/shown direction, tell them the necessary steps (some people can
> not process visually well and still retain the information).
>
> more of a stick then carrot...
> - IF the support you are providing costs $ (i.e. the customer is paying
> for it), make sure to include the support requester's boss, or other
> designated client-side support contact. As potentially, they will track
> the requests and costs associated with support requests.
> - implement a support limit (after which a cost burden is incurred -
> you can always wave this to make the customer happy, appear to be
> giving them a break), the client is allowed X amount of free support
> time, or y amount of support calls, or z amount of support email
> requests. Document heavy support users in feedback to the client.
>
> remember:
> “Think of how stupid the *average* person is, and realize half of them
> are stupider than that.”
> ― George Carlin  (emphasis mine)
>
> Also :
> "Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
> and despite the changing fortunes of time,
> There is always a big future in computer maintenance."
>
> You are a fluke of the universe.
> You have no right to be here.
> And whether you can hear it or not,
> The universe is laughing behind your back.
> - National Lampoon : Deteriorata
>
> Full Lyrics:
> http://www.songlyrics.com/national-lampoon/deteriorata-lyrics/
> Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk (missing the
> intro 20 seconds but has great animation)
>
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:39:59 +0100, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech wrote:
> > Users are beginning to get to me :)
> > Some of them WILL NOT follow instructions to accomplish something, no
> > matter how simple those instructions are.
> > I currently have one who is particularly bad!
> > I sent him an email detailing how to accomplish a particular task. It
> > contained an easy-to-follow 1-2-3 step-by-step guide with screenshots. I
> > spent ages writing it.
> > He called a bit later that day to say that it didn't work.
> > Did a screen-share with him and it was obvious that he hadn't followed
> the
> > instructions. I asked him:
> > "Did you read my email?|
> > "Oh", he replied, "I didn't read the whole thing."
> >
> > ARGH!!!
> >
> > He has just done the same thing again today (with a different procedure).
> > Also I explained (in a email that he can re-read as often as necessary)
> why
> > another feature wasn't working the way he wanted it to, and how to fix
> it,
> > and he has just complained about that same issue again too.
> >
> > How do you deal with people like this?
> >
> > (sorry about the rant)
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > --
> > *
> > CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> > tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> > w: http://www.catbase.com
> > skype: pat.bensky
> > *
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> ---
> Gas is for washing parts
> Alcohol is for drinkin'
> Nitromethane is for racing




-- 
*
CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
w: http://www.catbase.com
skype: pat.bensky
*
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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

Yes this is true but tips who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. 
A person who consistently does not read instructions fully and then complains 
may never. Just remember they are customer and tell them you will have to bill 
them if they continue to not follow instructions, as this was not part of 
support agreement. Or if they would rather you can do do it for them and bill a 
lot for that service to make it worth while.

It’s really funny what customers think you should do for them. I just removed 
myself from a customer as I had converted a compiled only version of 4D ever 
1.5.x to later version of 4D v11 and have been supporting them since. They sold 
the company and the asked me to to stay and support application, but that the 
new company had hoped another remote developer to do the conversion. They did 
not understand why I would not do this.

Regards
Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable 
law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby 
notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, 
modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is 
strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this message to any person other than the 
intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, 
privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication. 

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 10:29 AM, Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> As Doug said different people learn differently.

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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

As Doug said different people learn differently.

Things to try:
- more or different style of training. i.e. instead of a presentation 
give written documentation, instead of written documentation, show the 
user and ask them to take their own notes (this helps as they have to 
think through the process as they write), instead of any sort of 
written/shown direction, tell them the necessary steps (some people can 
not process visually well and still retain the information).

more of a stick then carrot...
- IF the support you are providing costs $ (i.e. the customer is paying 
for it), make sure to include the support requester's boss, or other 
designated client-side support contact. As potentially, they will track 
the requests and costs associated with support requests.
- implement a support limit (after which a cost burden is incurred - 
you can always wave this to make the customer happy, appear to be 
giving them a break), the client is allowed X amount of free support 
time, or y amount of support calls, or z amount of support email 
requests. Document heavy support users in feedback to the client.

remember:
“Think of how stupid the *average* person is, and realize half of them 
are stupider than that.”
― George Carlin  (emphasis mine)

Also :
"Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
and despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance."

You are a fluke of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not,
The universe is laughing behind your back.
- National Lampoon : Deteriorata

Full Lyrics: 
http://www.songlyrics.com/national-lampoon/deteriorata-lyrics/
Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk (missing the 
intro 20 seconds but has great animation)

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:39:59 +0100, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech wrote:
> Users are beginning to get to me :)
> Some of them WILL NOT follow instructions to accomplish something, no
> matter how simple those instructions are.
> I currently have one who is particularly bad!
> I sent him an email detailing how to accomplish a particular task. It
> contained an easy-to-follow 1-2-3 step-by-step guide with screenshots. I
> spent ages writing it.
> He called a bit later that day to say that it didn't work.
> Did a screen-share with him and it was obvious that he hadn't followed the
> instructions. I asked him:
> "Did you read my email?|
> "Oh", he replied, "I didn't read the whole thing."
> 
> ARGH!!!
> 
> He has just done the same thing again today (with a different procedure).
> Also I explained (in a email that he can re-read as often as necessary) why
> another feature wasn't working the way he wanted it to, and how to fix it,
> and he has just complained about that same issue again too.
> 
> How do you deal with people like this?
> 
> (sorry about the rant)
> 
> Pat
> 
> -- 
> *
> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> w: http://www.catbase.com
> skype: pat.bensky
> *
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Re: Number format

[Koen Van Hooreweghe via 4D_Tech]

Space is not needed. But comma and point make a difference in US of EU notation.

Koen

> Op 4 okt. 2017, om 16:24 heeft Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> That's the way I've always been able to make it work - with the space for
> the zero condition.




Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
tel +32 495 511.653

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Re: Number format

[Koen Van Hooreweghe via 4D_Tech]

> Op 4 okt. 2017, om 14:15 heeft stardata.info via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> I know this and i try, but not work.
> This format not display the value: 0,85

> ###,##0;-###,##0;

Ferdinando,

This depends on your regional settings and the 4D compatibility settings.
From one of the recent 4D versions (v13 and higher) uses by default US 
notation, but converts automatically to display in your regional settings.

The provided format is imho a us format for displaying whole positive and 
negative numbers up to one hundred thousand. No zeroes.

You must add placeholders for the decimals. Eg: ###,###0.00;-###,##0.00; or 
###,##0.##;-###,##0.##; if you don't want to see 100,00 but 100.

In full European notation you might need to switch dot and comma: 
###.###0,00;-###.##0,00

See: design reference chapter filters and formats for more info 
(http://doc.4d.com/4Dv15/4D/15.4/Filter-and-format-codes.300-3285353.en.html)

HTH
Koen



Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
tel +32 495 511.653

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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Tom Dillon via 4D_Tech]

Pat,

Easy!

At the start of the function add:

If(Find in array(aListOfMorons;current user))
  Alert("Go ask Bob to run this report for you.")
else
  // normal operation
.
.
.
end if

-- 
   --
   Tom Dillon   825 N. 500 W.
   DataCraft   Moab, UT 84532
   tomdil...@datacraft-inc.com   720/209-6502
   --
  Thought for the day:  When someone annoys you, it takes 42
  muscles to frown. But it takes only 4 muscles to extend your
  arm and whack them in the head.
   --


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Re: Number format

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

That's the way I've always been able to make it work - with the space for
the zero condition.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Tom Dillon via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> wrote:

> Try "###.##0,##0;-###.##0,##0; "
>
> Note that (I think) you need a space after the second semicolon.


-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

Pat,

There is a real difference between being a developer and being a trainer.
I'm not a particularly good trainer. I just can't get my head around the
beginner mind well enough in these circumstances to be really effective. In
others I can but not in 4D world. So it's usually best I refer such
questions to someone else because it's probably not so much an issue of the
actual technicality of the question as it is communicating it in both
directions. I hear the questions and tend to think of the technical
elements involved. They hear my answers as being long and overly
complicated instead of comprehensive and enlightening. And my emails are
too long. Part of that may be simple mansplaining but part is just the way
I think about it which is useful (mostly) as a developer but just too
freighted for a trainer.

Not much help here to your question I'm afraid. Except to say I don't think
it's your fault.

-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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Re: Number format

[Tom Dillon via 4D_Tech]

Ferdinando wrote:

>I try to insert the format ###.##0,##0 but not work properly.

Jeremy was right, except that he didn't notice you are using "." for thousands 
and "," for decimal. (I think)

Try "###.##0,##0;-###.##0,##0; "

Note that (I think) you need a space after the second semicolon.

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RE: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

I with David on this one.
I reported a bug in 4D's math libraries back in v2.3 (this would have 
been 1993 or 1994 I think).
it had to do with small values and comparison with zero. Very small 
real values (even when not zero), were in a comparison = zero.

It has been fixed in v13, I do not recall if it was fixed in v11.
test code:
C_REAL($x)
$x:=1.2*(10^-11)

Case of 
: ($x=0)
ALERT("=zero")

: ($x<0)
ALERT(" zero")
End case 
On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 20:56:19 +, Dennis, Neil via 4D_Tech wrote:
>> I'm with John on this one. The payoff for sending in bug reports and 
>> feature
>> requests is incredibly low. Zero feedback and results are rare.
>> *No matter what hoops are jumped.*
> 
> I have a different experience, I have reported a few bugs.
> 
> The ones that I have submitted that are reproducible I include a 
> small database demonstrating them. The bug is filed, I get email 
> notifications as it is updated and accepted, then I get an email 
> telling me it is in one of the nightly builds and I can test it.
> 
> The one that I reported that I could not reproduce, I had constant 
> emails between me and tech support until they actually figured out 
> how to reproduce it then sent it on to the engineers.
> 
> I have never felt ignored or neglected. I think they do a great job 
> with bugs that I have reported.
> 
> IMO
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Number format

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Hi Jeremy,

I know this and i try, but not work.
This format not display the value: 0,85

Thanks
/Ferdinando/

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 18:28:36 -0400
From: Jeremy French
To: 4D iNUG Technical<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: Number format
Message-ID:<0840df29-2c31-48e3-8be5-400c3a5fd...@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

The pattern to control the display of a zero value has 3-parts, separated by a 
semicolon. Note the 2-semicolons:

positive_format;negative_format;zero_format

To display nothing for a zero value, put nothing after the second semi-colon.

So this display filter will show positive and negative numbers, but display 
nothing for a zero value when the object doesn’t have focus:

###,##0;-###,##0;




On Oct 3, 2017, at 5:59 PM, stardata.info via 4D_Tech<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>  
wrote:

In one listbox, i need to display a number format so if the value is zero not 
display anything.
I try to insert the format ###.##0,##0 but not work properly.

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Re: What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech]

Pat,

An age old question.  I have a few thoughts around this.

My baseline is to start with the assumption that it is not the person but the 
system or the explanation that they have been given that needs improvement.  I 
suspect that you do this also but sometimes people can confound us.

Firstly, I employ people with more patience than myself for dealing with people 
who do not follow instructions we have provided.
We have policies about training that ensures a certain level of competency with 
our customers and their users.  We will not support all users just those who 
have been trained and have competency.
In really severe cases we have banned certain individuals from contacting our 
support team.

Sometimes the message needs to be adapted to the user as not everybody thinks 
the same way.  A bit like when somebody repeats back a telephone number in a 
different way to how you say it to them and you cannot check it :  I say 01234  
- 271 - 930 and they say back 012 - 342 - 719 - thirty…

Taking a little walk and having a scream sometimes also helps :-)

Dougie


telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com   Web : 
http://www.telekinetix.com 


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What to do about users who won't follow instructions?

[Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech]

Users are beginning to get to me :)
Some of them WILL NOT follow instructions to accomplish something, no
matter how simple those instructions are.
I currently have one who is particularly bad!
I sent him an email detailing how to accomplish a particular task. It
contained an easy-to-follow 1-2-3 step-by-step guide with screenshots. I
spent ages writing it.
He called a bit later that day to say that it didn't work.
Did a screen-share with him and it was obvious that he hadn't followed the
instructions. I asked him:
"Did you read my email?|
"Oh", he replied, "I didn't read the whole thing."

ARGH!!!

He has just done the same thing again today (with a different procedure).
Also I explained (in a email that he can re-read as often as necessary) why
another feature wasn't working the way he wanted it to, and how to fix it,
and he has just complained about that same issue again too.

How do you deal with people like this?

(sorry about the rant)

Pat

-- 
*
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tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
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Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

> It is what it is. What’s more important, getting the bug fixed or
bitching about customer service?
>  I always vote for doing whatever it takes to get bugs fixed.

Agreed! But I've found _nothing_ that works. Ever. I've jumped through all
of the hoops down the year, it hasn't worked. My crashing bug with V16.0+
where I supplied a database to demonstrate the problem in about a minute?
Nothing. No response, no action, no fix.

I take exception to the notion that somehow our bugs aren't getting fixed
because we're "not doing them right." Sure, that explains some of it. All
of it? Not a chance. *It's not our fault.* You mentioned that it's not Tim
Penner's job to take comments here and report bugs. Why not? In fact, Tim
does just that a lot of times - which seems like good service from Tim and
the US crew. I mean, it's crazy to think that somehow it's *our* fault that
a bug isn't getting fixed even though 4D knows about it. It's their bug,
not ours. I can't wait on bug fixes anyway. With their response times and
release cycles, I need to fix a problem in an hour or a day - I can't wait
six months to forever. If I can't use 4D for a task, I just don't. When I
reported my crashing bug (with demo database), I did it for *their* sake. I
figured "Hey, they're proud of preemptive mode and workers. Guess they'd
like to know it can bring down the server." Not so much. I don't get that.
In my case, I'm using a different architecture (an inferior one) as I can't
rely on logging to disk from a worker.

I used to report bugs and make feature requests a lot. I was one of the top
submitters for some time. Then one day I realized out of hundreds (probably
thousands) of reports, I'd gotten a couple of emails. Ever. I knew how to
do a "proper" submission because I'd worked at 4D for four years in Tech
support and then running IT in the USA. I couldn't get support for crashing
servers *then*. And it was their business. But I definitely knew how to
format a bug report. Down the years I've used bugs.4d.fr and more lately
the Forums. Still, no change. No feedback, no fixes. Maybe it's just me?
I'm not kidding about that. Neil reports a very different, and
satisfactory-sounding, experience.

Part of the problem is doubtlessly that as an Aussie developer, I don't
have access to the bug system.

But here is a little thought experiment. Imagine two different company's
with different attitudes to bugs and quality. Let's call them Huey and
Dewey.

Huey is *passionate* about quality and customer service. They take is as a
core part of the business to detect bugs before they reach customers, to
improve their processes when a bug does slip through, to release fixes as
soon as possible - even before customers know that there is a bug, and to
do everything reasonable to help customers reporting a problem. They're
constantly trying to improve their already substantial documentation. (I
saw a company just like this last year, it was a thing of true beauty.)

Dewy, well Dewey just doesn't know. They don't keep customers up to date,
they add a lot of hassle between customers and problems, they don't
actively look for non-critical bugs, they have no roadmap, they don't share
their priorities or even logic, and they ignore problems that they are
fully aware of. Many key features and behaviors are undocumented or
underdocumented.

What does 4D look more like? Huey or Dewy?
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Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Dennis,

That's great to hear. This is definitely not my experience...perhaps they
don't want to hear from me. I'm glad that you're getting good support,
that's encouraging.
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Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech]

Yes please, what David said…

> David Adams wrote:
> 
> ...but seriously, what I'd like to see 4D do is an *entire release* that
> consists of *nothing* but fixing bugs - as many as they can find, as many
> as we can find and longstanding annoyances. No fancy new features. Just
> cleaning up crashes, usability bugs (I see lingering 2004 or V11 usability
> bugs in the Design environment every single day in V16) and other weird
> stuff.


Hopefully v17 will bring with it some stability.  Looking back we skipped v12, 
v14 and so far have not used v16 in production.

My job is not to spend time identifying and reporting bugs to 4D.  My job is 
delivering solutions to my customers.  Sometimes that involves using non 4D 
solutions, sometimes it involves working around long standing bugs or 
undesirable features of 4D.  When 4D becomes an open source project then I will 
contribute to its development but while I am paying hard cash it is 4D’s job to 
provide the debugging, analysis and fixing resources.  If a version or feature 
is unstable, untrusted or unusable I simply do not adopt it or I adopt it in a 
way that is not going to hurt my clients, that is my job.

Regards,  Dougie


telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com   Web : 
http://www.telekinetix.com 

 
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Re: 4D v16.2 false record locks

[Bernd Fröhlich via 4D_Tech]

David Adams:

> ..but seriously, what I'd like to see 4D do is an *entire release* that
> consists of *nothing* but fixing bugs - as many as they can find, as many
> as we can find and longstanding annoyances. No fancy new features. Just
> cleaning up crashes, usability bugs (I see lingering 2004 or V11 usability
> bugs in the Design environment every single day in V16) and other weird
> stuff.

YES, PLEASE!!!

It is NOT my job as a 4D user to jump through hoops the report bugs and not 
even be able to see reported bugs of others.
It is 4Ds job to fix bugs that they know of, regardles where they got to know 
them.

When I find a bug, I report it here to warn other users, find a workaround and 
move on.
When 4D decides to make their bug list public (like e.g. Xojo does), I might 
change my view.

Greetings from Germany,
Bernd Fröhlich
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