Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
i was overly emotional, sorry. i also overlooked that the debate is about drawterm, a non-plan9 program. doubly sorry. still, to my taste, to much effort is devoted to things outside the system... however, i am not an MBA, maybe, it is all right. wishing a fantastic day, ++pac
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
i am not an MBA, maybe, it is all right it's always all right not to be an MBA
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
it's always all right not to be an MBA not here ;-)
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote: Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or useful for many. -- Rob Tannen When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for excision, based on the customers' actual needs -- Rob Tannen Solve simple problems and leave the hairy, difficult ones for everyone else. Instead of one-upping, try one-downing -- Rob Tannen But, IMHO, we still need a good web-browser for Plan 9 as well. BTW, I hate porting bloatware to clean, compact and efficient Plan 9. -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
So any more thoughts on whether or not this would be useful? I have to revise: that I did point to a java sdk and really should have constrained my contents to something like jquery api instead. So- why? (why build a website of drawterm) (I think) I like plan9 as a potential network controller. Not sure if I have the right idea or not. It is 'experimental,' after all. Having a full blown web interface to acme.dump and the things it can do to read and respond to routers of all varieties seems like it could be kind of useful. But I could be misguided, uninformed and tired. And StyxBrowser seems to lack auth code of any kind, and doesn't connect, or make any useful complaints that I can find right now. Oh it connects to the ip/port that it ships with, and is a file browser not a drawterm port, but that was in the docs. Yeah I would much rather run from (from within, or away from) an ajax app anyway. much happyness all, hroyerboat misguided, uninformed and tired. On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 3:15 AM, dorin bumbu bumbudo...@gmail.com wrote: it seems somebody already done a js virtual machine :) http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browser Dorin on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser. not that i'm signing up or anything. :-) - erik -- ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or useful for many. -- Rob Tannen yes!! BTW, I hate porting bloatware to clean, compact and efficient Plan 9. so do i, however, sometimes time (and, in my case, skills) is not sufficient to clean-up the mess that accumulated in the code over years, and different maintainers), sigh... So, instead of trying to port (the language part) of GNU R, I am learning S+/R and rewriting to plain C, just now... BTW, S(+) language originated in Bell Labs, didn't it? However, its clone, R, has grown into monstrous all-capable all-inclusive application, or platform per se. i hate applications. true computing is black. c++ is to c, as lung cancer is to lung ;-) ++pac
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote: Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or useful for many. -- Rob Tannen When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for excision, based on the customers' actual needs -- Rob Tannen I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser. However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I worry about what customers want in my day job. But what customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from the bard; There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt of in the PC/Web philosophy. Plan 9 and Inferno are the best places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty. BLS
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
Sent from my iPhone On May 18, 2011, at 5:24 AM, blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote: Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or useful for many. -- Rob Tannen When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for excision, based on the customers' actual needs -- Rob Tannen I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser. However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I worry about what customers want in my day job. But what customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from the bard; There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt of in the PC/Web philosophy. Plan 9 and Inferno are the best places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty. BLS I don't think there's any real constraints. Bottom line is the code is there and it's pretty nice. You can do what you want. If you seek outside approval to chase an idea, you've already failed the most important person in the equation - yourself. Who cares what anyone else thinks? Or as Homer Simpson said, I'm sure Einstein turned himself all kinds of colors before he invented the light bulb.
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On 05/18/2011 05:56 PM, blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote: Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or useful for many. -- Rob Tannen When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for excision, based on the customers' actual needs -- Rob Tannen I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser. However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I worry about what customers want in my day job. But what customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from the bard; There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt of in the PC/Web philosophy. Plan 9 and Inferno are the best places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty. How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea? Who will fund such projects, why and for how long? OTOH, nobody is going to stop anyone going his/her own way; everyone has a right to beat his/her drum and that too either at any rhythm or no rhythm at all ;) However, the *real* programmers are different and they should/must know well what they are doing and why? -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea? Who will fund such projects, why and for how long? you mean a research project like unix or plan 9? - erik
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On May 18, 2011, at 8:24 AM, blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: ...I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what we are doing with a research system? Probably good point. But that said did not Lucent try to market Plan 9 beyond that at some point, or do I have that wrong?
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea? That's kind of the point I was getting at. Asking how research is useful isn't asking the most telling question. Research isn't always about utility; it's about intellectual contribution. Of course, it's great when research results find their way into application, but not having direct application (yet) doesn't devalue the research. Who will fund such projects, why and for how long? Although this seems to have been systematically ignored for the last 30 years or so, I would argue that an enlightened organization will recognize that to be innovative in the future, they must ask the questions no one knows the answers to now. Some fraction of those questions will lead to practical applications and some won't. Whether you are measuring success in competitive advantage or in papers published, that's why an organization will invest in research. One way I've described it before is that if you gather together smart people, give them resources and freedom, you won't know ahead of time what they'll come up with, but you can count on them coming up with something. In some cases, what they come up with is driven by application, like with the transistor. In some cases, the main applications will be discovered later as people study the results. To some extent the LASER falls into that category. And in some cases, the result has little or no practical application, but it becomes part of what defines us and our understanding of ourselves. I'd count the discovery of the cosmic background radiation in that. IMHO we would all be diminished had any of those avenues of research been cut off because they were a cost that didn't have a short-term ROI. OTOH, nobody is going to stop anyone going his/her own way; everyone has a right to beat his/her drum and that too either at any rhythm or no rhythm at all ;) Absolutely, and from where I sit, that's a key part of the 9fans ethos. If someone has a good idea, then they are encouraged to implement it and report on what they learn. The results might get ignored, or they might spark somone else's creativity to take it further. If it's a practical application that sparks the idea, great. If it's pure curiosity, that's great too. BLS
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browse then how about drawterm in javascript? Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser. russ implemented samterm in js. - erik
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
While not exactly the same, http://guacamole.sourceforge.net/ might be a good starting point for what would need to be done. There are actually several variations of this around (vnc in javascript). Not sure which would be the most simple as a starting point. -eric On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:00 AM, Adrian Tritschler a...@ajft.org wrote: If this can be done http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browse then how about drawterm in javascript? Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser. Anyone up for a challenge? Sorry, I'll be quiet now -- Adrian Screw the environment. Print this email immediately. Then burn it without reading it.
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 3:38 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browse then how about drawterm in javascript? Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser. russ implemented samterm in js. implemented is a very strong word. i did a mock of the ui that can highlight text. (that's all it can do.) http://swtch.com/jsamterm/
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
I suggested a simple draw server in HTML5+websockets for a GSoC project this year. If anyone wants to work on it let me know. http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/gsoc-2011-ideas/index.html -Skip On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Adrian Tritschler a...@ajft.org wrote: If this can be done http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browse then how about drawterm in javascript? Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser. Anyone up for a challenge? Sorry, I'll be quiet now -- Adrian Screw the environment. Print this email immediately. Then burn it without reading it.
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
Folks, i am very unhappy seeing this kind of discussions here (and, the wasted potential to do something more useful in my eyes, sorry, but IMHO)... it resembles me very much the times when Steve Jobbs compromised the ideas of the NeXTstep, first downgrading it to the OpenStep for Windoze users, then downgrading to MacOS X.. look, what happened to linux, bsd, etc: it's all approaching the silly model of windoze, you'll kill me but its IMHO... i don't want zillion of comp. languages to learn when they are capable of mostly the same ... please, please, Bell Labs people, please, do not compromise the ideas... believe me, it was not very much easy to me to throw away all the boilerplate apps served on linux and do the C port of many (70) of them to switch to native plan9, but i feel it was one of the best decisions in my (professional) life, and remember, i am not a programmer, i am a paleobiologist, hence , user... Just my sad feelings... native plan9 deserves more focus than it gets, imho... i would hate to see plan9 as a plugin for Mozilla 20.0 Sincerely, Peter, aka ++pac a proud user of plan9 since 2001...
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, i am very unhappy seeing this kind of discussions here (and, the wasted potential to do something more useful in my eyes, sorry, but IMHO)... it resembles me very much the times when Steve Jobbs compromised the ideas of the NeXTstep, first downgrading it to the OpenStep for Windoze users, then downgrading to MacOS X.. look, what happened to linux, bsd, etc: it's all approaching the silly model of windoze, you'll kill me but its IMHO... i don't want zillion of comp. languages to learn when they are capable of mostly the same ... please, please, Bell Labs people, please, do not compromise the ideas... believe me, it was not very much easy to me to throw away all the boilerplate apps served on linux and do the C port of many (70) of them to switch to native plan9, but i feel it was one of the best decisions in my (professional) life, and remember, i am not a programmer, i am a paleobiologist, hence , user... Just my sad feelings... native plan9 deserves more focus than it gets, imho... i would hate to see plan9 as a plugin for Mozilla 20.0 Sincerely, Peter, aka ++pac a proud user of plan9 since 2001... What the hell? They're not saying, Screw running on hardware, let's just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser, they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. As fgb would say, relax. No Bell Labs people have even commented on this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example. John
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
(kinda off-topic) Just saw this show up today... QEMU+Linux running under JavaScript on Chrome/FireFox. http://bellard.org/jslinux/ -joe
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.com wrote: (kinda off-topic) Just saw this show up today... QEMU+Linux running under JavaScript on Chrome/FireFox. http://bellard.org/jslinux/ -joe It's not really off-topic, since that's the site that the OP's slashdot link was about :) John
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
http://bellard.org/jslinux/ That's the link that started this thread. :-) I think the HTML Canvas and WebSockets would make drawterm a bit easier now than it was the last time I tried. The main problem now is that I don't believe it's possible to grab all three mouse button clicks reliably. Russ
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
(embarrassed) and didn't read the first post. On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:57 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.com wrote: (kinda off-topic) Just saw this show up today... QEMU+Linux running under JavaScript on Chrome/FireFox. http://bellard.org/jslinux/ -joe It's not really off-topic, since that's the site that the OP's slashdot link was about :) John
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
This article seems to have all the pieces for mouse button management. http://unixpapa.com/js/mouse.html - Jason On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.comwrote: (embarrassed) and didn't read the first post. On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:57 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.com wrote: (kinda off-topic) Just saw this show up today... QEMU+Linux running under JavaScript on Chrome/FireFox. http://bellard.org/jslinux/ -joe It's not really off-topic, since that's the site that the OP's slashdot link was about :) John
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
i don't know what compromise you're talking about; anything that can implement and use 9P is a legitimate component to attach to Plan 9. browsers are the predominant way that users connect to the Net; websockets in html5 provide the ability to establish a full duplex tcp connection. why shouldn't we want to use the browser as a 9P server or client? On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, i am very unhappy seeing this kind of discussions here (and, the wasted potential to do something more useful in my eyes, sorry, but IMHO)... it resembles me very much the times when Steve Jobbs compromised the ideas of the NeXTstep, first downgrading it to the OpenStep for Windoze users, then downgrading to MacOS X.. look, what happened to linux, bsd, etc: it's all approaching the silly model of windoze, you'll kill me but its IMHO... i don't want zillion of comp. languages to learn when they are capable of mostly the same ... please, please, Bell Labs people, please, do not compromise the ideas... believe me, it was not very much easy to me to throw away all the boilerplate apps served on linux and do the C port of many (70) of them to switch to native plan9, but i feel it was one of the best decisions in my (professional) life, and remember, i am not a programmer, i am a paleobiologist, hence , user... Just my sad feelings... native plan9 deserves more focus than it gets, imho... i would hate to see plan9 as a plugin for Mozilla 20.0 Sincerely, Peter, aka ++pac a proud user of plan9 since 2001...
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
What the hell? They're not saying, Screw running on hardware, let's just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser, they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. As fgb would say, relax. No Bell Labs people have even commented on this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example. relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux. on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser. not that i'm signing up or anything. :-) - erik
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right? I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it. On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote: What the hell? They're not saying, Screw running on hardware, let's just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser, they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. As fgb would say, relax. No Bell Labs people have even commented on this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example. relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux. on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser. not that i'm signing up or anything. :-) - erik -- ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
other's have done what you're suggesting: http://code.google.com/p/styxbrowser/ also drawterm port to iphone was one of last year's successful gsoc projects. that's not the point though; the point is to have something that runs natively in the browser. if chrome can run angry birds, why not drawterm! -Skip On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 11:46 AM, a z rhoyerb...@gmail.com wrote: Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right? I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it. On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote: What the hell? They're not saying, Screw running on hardware, let's just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser, they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. As fgb would say, relax. No Bell Labs people have even commented on this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example. relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux. on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser. not that i'm signing up or anything. :-) - erik -- ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote: they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:00:15 AM Adrian Tritschler wrote: Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser. Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some other person's/party's pc or laptop? Is this for when you glide into a coffee shop and forget your laptop or something? Hey, Mr may I borrow your laptop's web browser for a sec... I really need to hack some code on my plan9 system. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:04:02 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: that's not the point though; the point is to have something that runs natively in the browser. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote: Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago, javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE... but suddenly, here's something we can all get behind... javascript + html5 + browsers and other web standards are now OK[tm]? So it's cool to have the 9 running 'native' in a browser (via javascript!)... but to have the web running 'native' in Plan 9... is stark full of controversy, fear, uncertainty and doubt? On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote: one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly be appealing to non-plan 9 users. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote: it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. Well now this at least actually makes some modicum of sense to me. The web is the key.
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
JavaScript is not java... Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 11:46 AM, a z rhoyerb...@gmail.com wrote: Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right? I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it. On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote: What the hell? They're not saying, Screw running on hardware, let's just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser, they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. As fgb would say, relax. No Bell Labs people have even commented on this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example. relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux. on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser. not that i'm signing up or anything. :-) - erik -- ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. On May 17, 2011 6:53 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote: they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan 9) these days. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:00:15 AM Adrian Tritschler wrote: Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere that's got a web browser. Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some other person's/party's pc or laptop? Is this for when you glide into a coffee shop and forget your laptop or something? Hey, Mr may I borrow your laptop's web browser for a sec... I really need to hack some code on my plan9 system. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:04:02 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: that's not the point though; the point is to have something that runs natively in the browser. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote: Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not going to downgrade Plan 9. Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago, javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE... but suddenly, here's something we can all get behind... javascript + html5 + browsers and other web standards are now OK[tm]? So it's cool to have the 9 running 'native' in a browser (via javascript!)... but to have the web running 'native' in Plan 9... is stark full of controversy, fear, uncertainty and doubt? On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote: one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly be appealing to non-plan 9 users. On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote: it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86. Well now this at least actually makes some modicum of sense to me. The web is the key.
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 04:40:50 PM Jacob Todd wrote: Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas of concern: Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some other person's/party's pc or laptop? Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago, javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE... I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly be appealing to non-plan 9 users. The web is the key. Cheers
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:58 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 04:40:50 PM Jacob Todd wrote: Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard. Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas of concern: Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some other person's/party's pc or laptop? Instead of a traditional web server platform for web applications this could be an alternative deployment target. Use a grid of Plan 9 machines with a native interface in JavaScript. JavaScript front end to a distributed Go application on Plan 9 sounds like a potentially useful medium to work in. Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago, javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE... I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly be appealing to non-plan 9 users. The one that doesn't look like a Plan 9 application, but instead looks like a useful application? I don't think Linux was appealing to very many people before it was obvious one could host a cheap http server on it either. The web is the key. That's part of it likely, but I think we have to be able to imagine how Plan 9 makes something easier for someone with a web browser. Technology in search of a use is almost always the wrong way to go, but I think it did work out in Linux's case. Dave Cheers
Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
Hey David, thanks for responding. The sci-fi you write below is exactly the sort of fiction I'd find very interesting in 9 space, and corresponds rather closely to what I premised in a past thread[1]. So, I believe we're speaking the same language; but the picture you've painted seems out-of-band to the drawterm-in-browser idea presented by the OP; for instance: Instead of a traditional web server platform for web applications this could be an alternative deployment target. If we're talking in terms of alternative deployment targets, then we're talking about a controlled environment where we have control over the installed software and hardware; but the drawterm-in-javascript idea is intended for pre-deployed, 3rd-party accessibility to plan 9. Use a grid of Plan 9 machines with a native interface in JavaScript. and: The one that doesn't look like a Plan 9 application, but instead looks like a useful application? The drawterm-in-javascript-on-web-browser idea doesn't actually provide a general-consumer-friendly interface to plan 9 - it just amounts to window into the currently-existing plan 9 ui... we're still talking text + libdraw, libpanel, libcontrol, libframe, etc.. I agree that an html + css + javascript ui on Plan 9 would be a good and familiar way to get native Plan 9 applications into the hands of general users; but this drawterm-in-javascript idea does not facilitate the goal of a more accessible/familiar WIMP environment for a general consumer market; though it would be a useful tool once we finally did have a native web within plan 9 itself, because then 'we' _could_ make good on erik's: one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users in plan 9. ... in a way that would actually be appealing to non-plan 9 users. [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/9fans@9fans.net/msg19990.html
